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Subject: Filling the bag and seeding the action spaces rss

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victor keen
United Kingdom
westbury
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At the beginning of each round the bag is filled from supply in accordance with the set up card and then the action spaces are seeded also in accordance with the card. Since these quantities coincide it is clear that after seeding the action spaces bag is empty. This situation will recur at the beginning of every round. Yet it is maintained that 'usually fewer cubes are drawn from the bag than added to it'. Since it is stated that all transacted cubes are returned to supply I fail to see how the number of the cubes in the bag can ever exceed the number required for seeding. Or am I missing something?
 
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Seth Jaffee
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vhk43 wrote:
At the beginning of each round the bag is filled from supply in accordance with the set up card and then the action spaces are seeded also in accordance with the card. Since these quantities coincide it is clear that after seeding the action spaces bag is empty. This situation will recur at the beginning of every round. Yet it is maintained that 'usually fewer cubes are drawn from the bag than added to it'. Since it is stated that all transacted cubes are returned to supply I fail to see how the number of the cubes in the bag can ever exceed the number required for seeding. Or am I missing something?

Those numbers do NOT coincide.

I didn't check for other player counts, but for 4 players it's like this:
26 cubes go into the bag (5 of each type, 6 plague), and 24 come out:
1 @ Market
2 @ Travel
3 @ Church
3 @ Council
4 @ Farming
4 @ Family
7 @ Craft

So that leaves 2 in the bag each round.

Edit: corrected a number
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Thomas Büttner
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Even more:

26 go in, 24 go out - so two remain in the bag.
However, for each plague cube left in the bag, there will be one cube less in the bag in the next round (since they are simply returned - so if in the first round one black cube remains in the bag, then only 25 cubes are added to the two cubes in the bag - one of the 6 plague cubes is still in the bag).

For three players:
23 in, 21 out.

For two players:
20 in, 18 out.
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victor keen
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Thanks for that guys. I was only allowing 4 plague cubes assuming there were the same number as the monks. There were 2 cubes missing and I did not check the contents.
 
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Monika Żabicka
Poland
Wodzisław Śl.
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Sorry guys, I still don't understand.

At the beginning of each round:
- do I put all the cubes from the set-up card into the bag regardless of what remained in the bag in the previous round (ie. each round there are more and more cubes in the bag)
OR
- do I refill the cubes in the bag so that in sum there is exactly the number of cubes from the set-up card?

I thought the later, but I'm confused by your answers and by the rules which state "there are leftover cubes in the bag each round, which are mixed up with new ones at the beginning of each round"
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Der Einsielder
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At the beginning of each round you

1. do NOT have a look into the bag! All refill actions are independent from what is in the bag.
2. take 5 green, 5 orange, 5 brown and 5 pink cubes and put them in the bag
3. take all black cubes and put them in the bag

Der Einsiedler
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Monika Żabicka
Poland
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Thank you :) the more I read the rules the more obvoius it seemed.
 
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Yongkie Saputra
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My friends had a situation where they ran out of cubes and unable to fill (with the appropriate cubes) and seed the action spaces (the cubes in bag were less than the amount needed to seed the action spaces), I was not in the game so I don't have any idea why this could happen, as far as I know, 2 of the players hoard most of the cubes.
What should be done in this situation? is it mentioned anywhere in the rulebook regarding this?
 
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Der Einsielder
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_Zephyr wrote:
My friends had a situation where they ran out of cubes and unable to fill (with the appropriate cubes) and seed the action spaces (the cubes in bag were less than the amount needed to seed the action spaces), I was not in the game so I don't have any idea why this could happen, as far as I know, 2 of the players hoard most of the cubes.
What should be done in this situation? is it mentioned anywhere in the rulebook regarding this?


1. your friends did a very unusual (bad) game. It's not a good idea to store all the cubes. You lose a lot of potential . It just needs 1 good playing player and all others will lose for sure.

2. In the german board game champion chip this issue was solved like that: a. count how many cubes are missing. b. Fill Craft-Family-Wheat-Church-Council-Travel-Market with as many virtual black cubes as cubes are missing. c. now distribute the remaining cubes as usual (I'm sure that rule was never used)

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Yongkie Saputra
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Einsiedler wrote:
_Zephyr wrote:
My friends had a situation where they ran out of cubes and unable to fill (with the appropriate cubes) and seed the action spaces (the cubes in bag were less than the amount needed to seed the action spaces), I was not in the game so I don't have any idea why this could happen, as far as I know, 2 of the players hoard most of the cubes.
What should be done in this situation? is it mentioned anywhere in the rulebook regarding this?


1. your friends did a very unusual (bad) game. It's not a good idea to store all the cubes. You lose a lot of potential . It just needs 1 good playing player and all others will lose for sure.

2. In the german board game champion chip this issue was solved like that: a. count how many cubes are missing. b. Fill Craft-Family-Wheat-Church-Council-Travel-Market with as many virtual black cubes as cubes are missing. c. now distribute the remaining cubes as usual (I'm sure that rule was never used)



1. Yes, that was a very poor play indeed, but all of them were new to board games, the hardest game they ever play was 7 wonders

2. What do you mean, virtual black cubes?
A. Use any other components and treat them as black cubes? (the amount of black cubes will be significantly higher this round)
Or
B. Put some "invisible" cubes in the action spaces based on the order you mentioned, thus the total amount of influence cubes will be lesser.

Which one is correct?
 
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Der Einsielder
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_Zephyr wrote:

2. What do you mean, virtual black cubes?
A. Use any other components and treat them as black cubes? (the amount of black cubes will be significantly higher this round)
Or
B. Put some "invisible" cubes in the action spaces based on the order you mentioned, thus the total amount of influence cubes will be lesser.

Which one is correct?


A. is correct.

In the championships it was suggested to use coins.
So each area gets as many cubes as in the rules.
But: now a lot of them are black cubes.
Punishment for bad play devildevildevil
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Yongkie Saputra
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Einsiedler wrote:
_Zephyr wrote:

2. What do you mean, virtual black cubes?
A. Use any other components and treat them as black cubes? (the amount of black cubes will be significantly higher this round)
Or
B. Put some "invisible" cubes in the action spaces based on the order you mentioned, thus the total amount of influence cubes will be lesser.

Which one is correct?


A. is correct.

In the championships it was suggested to use coins.
So each area gets as many cubes as in the rules.
But: now a lot of them are black cubes.
Punishment for bad play devildevildevil


I see, thanks for you help
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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Einsiedler wrote:
In the german board game champion chip this issue was solved like that: a. count how many cubes are missing. b. Fill Craft-Family-Wheat-Church-Council-Travel-Market with as many virtual black cubes as cubes are missing. c. now distribute the remaining cubes as usual.

The problem with this approach is that it requires you to count the cubes in the bag (to determine whether there are enough) before distributing them. It would better to avoid this.

An alternative would be to "deal out" the cubes one at a time in the opposite order to what is listed above (i.e., Market first, then Travel, etc.). Of course, you would skip areas in subsequent "rounds" when they are full (e.g., skip Market when allocating a second cube to areas).

Then, once the bag is empty, give out "virtual black cubes" to those areas still requiring cubes.

(Of course, you can always start by looking at how many cubes people have on their farmyards. In most cases, you'll see a number sufficiently small to infer that there will be enough cubes in the supply.)

Either way (counting first or dealing out), the use of "virtual black cubes" is a rules interpretation that can't be inferred from the printed rules.

An alternative might be to say that you "deal out" what cubes you have and start there.
 
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