Daniel Danzer
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I just don`t understand some of the policy going on here in the forum. I am a regular forum user and writer for six years, and AFAIK, it was never a problem to create a thread into a game`s forum pointing interested people to other threads hard to find and NOT yet linked to the game page but directly dealing with the game. This makes it much easier for people looking up the game to find interesting information - one major thing this site is made for, right? Regarding pictures, there is even a special "linked to" tool to get this done.

Now, the 1000 year-old game Rithmomachy is projected on a well known crowdfunding plattform. Wouldn`t it be nice to see this on the game page? Well, the original thread telling people about the project was moved from the game site into the forum of the plattforms "family", which cannot be found easily (more or less only, if you are looking for the plattform, but why should somebody interested in a 100 year-old game should look this up ???)
So, there was no info on the game page anymore. So, I posted a thread with two links pointing to the thread in the project family forum and to the geeklist, where actually people discussed the project, including the creator of the project. I thought, this would be helpful information. The thread was deleted and I got the following GM:

BoardGameGeek wrote:
The post titled: "..." has been deleted from the forums.
Quote:
my thread text


Please do not create threads just to drive traffic to other threads.

--- This message was auto-generated - do not reply ---
BGG Forum Moderator


Now, I could not find this rule in the forum rules ...
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/community_rules
... and I still have a hard time to find the platform thread about Rithmomachy.

Anybody with more insight who can tell me, what is going on here?
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Russ Williams
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That does seem strange to me as well.

It seems like the original Rithmomachy thread was clearly more likely to be of interest to people interested in Rithmomachy ("cool, a possibility to buy a nice looking wooden set of this game I'm interested in") than to people interested in Kickstarter ("hmm, yet another Kickstarter project which wants to convince me to give it money, about some obscure 1000-year old game I've never heard of").

It occurs to me that it could be a Good Thing if threads could exist in more than one forum simultaneously. Such threads could then be in the specific game forum as well as in the Kickstarter forum.

Meanwhile, I wonder if it would violate this odd policy to temporarily edit the game's wiki description to inform users about the Kickstarter project.
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Derry Salewski
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There's an announcement with the crowdfunding policies somewhere. Pretty sure the announcement thread is stickied.

I saw your thread earlier. It was on my front page at the same time as the thread in the kickstarter family about the exact same thing. That's why those types of threads are not helpful.


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Daniel Danzer
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Well, this was due to a rather special adjustments regarding your front page. But BGG should rather be "inclusive" than "exclusive", I guess.
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scifiantihero wrote:
I saw your thread earlier. It was on my front page at the same time as the thread in the kickstarter family about the exact same thing. That's why those types of threads are not helpful.

I agree that is unfortunately annoying when redundant/similar threads appear on the front page.

But the fact that something can be annoying, or that it is not helpful to you personally, doesn't show that it is not helpful to other people.

(E.g. ambulance sirens...)

Note that:

1. Some people don't pay a lot of attention to the front page but get much of their BGG info via subscriptions to games and users and blogs and such. (That's how I learned about the new edition. I didn't see it on the front page. I am subscribed to Rithmomachy because the game interests me.)

2. And for people who do use the front page, threads on the front page disappear within a few hours or a day anyway. Then from tomorrow onward, people interested in the specific game who look at the game's BGG entry and at the front page will not learn about this new edition of the game. That is why those types of threads are helpful. It's actual relevant information about the specific game - the game's entry seems a pretty logical place for it to be.
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russ wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
I saw your thread earlier. It was on my front page at the same time as the thread in the kickstarter family about the exact same thing. That's why those types of threads are not helpful.

I agree that is unfortunately annoying when redundant/similar threads appear on the front page.

But the fact that something can be annoying, or that it is not helpful to you personally, doesn't show that it is not helpful to other people.

(E.g. ambulance sirens...)

Note that:

1. Some people don't pay a lot of attention to the front page but get much of their BGG info via subscriptions to games and users and blogs and such. (That's how I learned about the new edition. I didn't see it on the front page. I am subscribed to Rithmomachy because the game interests me.)

2. And for people who do use the front page, threads on the front page disappear within a few hours or a day anyway. Then from tomorrow onward, people interested in the specific game who look at the game's BGG entry and at the front page will not learn about this new edition of the game. That is why those types of threads are helpful. It's actual relevant information about the specific game - the game's entry seems a pretty logical place for it to be.


But in the same vein of being unhelpful, that post's helpfulness expires in several weeks.

I get 95 percent of my BGG use from the modules I have on the front page. KS threads WERE the issue that admins say they were. In this case, it might be more useful, however, the game doesn't even seem to have any forum posts discussing it. And the first geeklist on it's page is a link to the KS.


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Daniel Danzer
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No problem to delete the thread after the KS project is through.

I would like to know more about the "kickstarter problem" the admins had. Were they overflooding the site? Okay. But were they overflooding each game`s forums? Why then is the Escape: The Curse of the Temple forum full of threads regarding the kickstarter project, and in case of Rithmomachy, the only thread was moved?
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duchamp wrote:
No problem to delete the thread after the KS project is through.

I would like to know more about the "kickstarter problem" the admins had. Were they overflooding the site? Okay. But were they overflooding each game`s forums? Why then is the Escape: The Curse of the Temple forum full of threads regarding the kickstarter project, and in case of Rithmomachy, the only thread was moved?


Someone should look at them if they are flagged.
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Justus
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This is idiotic. Its not that hard to ignore something...but it is impossible to know about something that is disappeared.

If the game is any good then there will be plenty of new threads to bury the KS announcement thread, and if the game never gets popular, at least it is of historical interest to note the game was kickstarted at one time. Either way I see no downside to keeping the thread up.
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I think part of the problem is that games which have a Kickstarter campaign are essentially generating revenue for their game, using BGG, and not giving the site a "cut".

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they are taking a "no judgement calls" approach to controlling this. Games aren't allowed to have a link to their Kickstarter page right on the main game page, and it sounds like the forums are being policed for this as well.

FWIW, I could be VERY wrong here.
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FWIW - I have no interest in the game, yet still found out about the KS project because it popped on my KS thread subscription. I would see no need for further threads leading to it.
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Emperors Grace wrote:
FWIW - I have no interest in the game, yet still found out about the KS project because it popped on my KS thread subscription. I would see no need for further threads leading to it.


That's fine and dandy for the folks subscribed to the KS thread. But the folks that are subscribed to the game itself should also be allowed to post and comment on that specific game's KS project in that specific game's forum.
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aaarg_ink wrote:
Emperors Grace wrote:
FWIW - I have no interest in the game, yet still found out about the KS project because it popped on my KS thread subscription. I would see no need for further threads leading to it.


That's fine and dandy for the folks subscribed to the KS thread. But the folks that are subscribed to the game itself should also be allowed to post and comment on that specific game's KS project in that specific game's forum.

Indeed - people are not forced to talk about the announced upcoming new edition of Ogre in the Steve Jackson Games forum instead of the Ogre forum, for example. All kinds of chat about upcoming non-Kickstarter editions occurs in game forums here. It's not obvious to me why Kickstarter editions should be treated differently.
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Regardless of whether or not they make sense, here are the rules as I understand them:

1) There is a Kickstarter announcement thread where all official kickstarter projects should be advertised once. This can be found here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/746926/kickstarter-annou... Beyond this one post, no further self-promotion is allowed without first contacting an Admin and paying for specific self-promotion privileges. Almost all kickstarter-related threads are considered self-promotion while the campaign is going on.

2) An exception to #1 is the Kickstarter Family Forums. You can self-promote all you want here and the messages go out to people that actually use kickstarter and back projects. At first this was relatively unknown, but with community support and admin cooperation, we are getting more people to post and subscribe in this forum. They can be found here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forum/915012/kickstarter/genera... You can go nuts with self-promotion in here, but it will be hidden from the general public who do not visit or subscribe to this forum.

3) As for leaving game-related kickstarter threads in the Game forums, we are currently having a discussion about this with the admins in this thread over here: Where are the kickstarter forums?


If you haven't done so, anyone interested in discussing kickstarter-related issues or keeping abreast of kickstarter games should visit the Kickstarter Family Forums http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forum/915012/kickstarter/genera... and use the Subscribe button at the top.
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Thanks for the summary.

My main critic is, that "kickstarter projects" are considered as "professional acts of publishing", and threads mentioning them as self-promotion.

This might be true for Queen games or Tasty Minstrel games and threads created by people working for the company.

This is NOT true for many of the self-publishing, hobby game designing or even re-publishing old games people, the ones kickstarter was originally made for. And threads not even created by themselves, but by gamers who are just informing others about a new edition of a certain game.

Every announcement for a new edition of a game should then be put into the forum of this game publisher. So, all threads about the new edition(s) of "Merchant of Venus" should be deleted from the "MoV" forum and put into FFG / Stronghold forums.

And that`s where my very large ? is coming from.
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Yeah, just to jump it, it is completely ridiculous that an established game complany can announce stuff in a BGG game forum threads, but if a kickstarter push is made, there can't be one single posting in the game database? Explain the logic to me.

One thread in the specific game's forum, instead of having people that may be interested in said game chase down the kickstarter family or the seperate independent kicstarter thread.
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It can be argued that these games shouldn't even have game entries. They are not yet published in their final form, and may never get the funding to be published. A kickstarter campaign is not a "release", but a request for funding.

A current kickstarter campaign is not for a published game, a self-publsihed game, or a web-published game. The game idea being pitched in the campaign may never be released in its final or current form.

The admins requirements to use the kickstarter family forums while a kickstarter campaign is ongoing is inconvenient, but not ridiculous.
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duchamp wrote:
Thanks for the summary.

My main critic is, that "kickstarter projects" are considered as "professional acts of publishing", and threads mentioning them as self-promotion.


--snips--


Good points, but it's not that kickstarter projects are being compared in the same light as published games, but rather that the requirements of self-promotion have been set very broad in these forums. In these forums, anyone who is deemed to have a direct personal interest in the products release is included in the umbrella of "self-promotion". This includes backers who may be more interested in getting their own projects funded or stretch goals reached rather than making genuine insightful recommendations and deal alerts.

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Oh - and a "designer`s diary" in the blog or forum section are no self-promotion?

And all the games in the database not yet published are "less not published" than the new version of Rithmomachy, which is over a 1000 years old? "Huang Di" was in the database and announced for 4 years, before kickstarter made it possible to let it finally see the day of light, as Island Fortress ...

And all the "fans" of games, who are posting requests for re-publishing an OOP game, and gamers writing positive reviews of their favourite games are not doing as much "self-promotion" (getting some respect and attention for a game they love) as a person backing a kickstarter project? The money is not even paid yet!

Plus - why did I get this answer, instead of an explanation about kickstarter an / or "self-promotion" or whatever, if these are the reasons for deleting my thread? :
BoardGameGeek wrote:
The post titled: "..." has been deleted from the forums.
Quote:
my thread text


Please do not create threads just to drive traffic to other threads.

--- This message was auto-generated - do not reply ---
BGG Forum Moderator
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lordrahvin wrote:
It can be argued that these games shouldn't even have game entries. They are not yet published in their final form, and may never get the funding to be published. A kickstarter campaign is not a "release", but a request for funding.

A current kickstarter campaign is not for a published game, a self-publsihed game, or a web-published game. The game idea being pitched in the campaign may never be released in its final or current form.

Agreed that one could argue this way, but it's been long-established tradition at BGG that non-published games can be added to the database, and it is actively encouraged, e.g. in various "game design contests" where sometimes people add half-baked untested prototype ideas as BGG game database entries.
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The fact that I have a game designer badge is proof that having a published game is NOT at all necessary for entry in the BGG database...and hell, at least my game is published on the Decktet wiki, some of these games are mere vaporware!

That said, I think its good exercise for everyone to try and design a game, its an interesting experience.
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This site makes a distinction between not being published and being web-published. Queens of Fate is a web-published game that will never be published in a traditional form, but it can still be downloaded and played. Its not like I'm sitting on it, waiting for publication without anyone able to play it.. Can you play a failed kickstarter game? Ever?


So yeah, I see your point and argued it to the admins. But I see their perspective too, and don't consider either viewpoint to be unreasonable or rediculous.
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lordrahvin wrote:
Can you play a failed kickstarter game? Ever?

You can play the very game which prompted this thread regardless of whether the kickstarter in question fails or succeeds...
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russ wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:
Can you play a failed kickstarter game? Ever?

You can play the very game which prompted this thread regardless of whether the kickstarter in question fails or succeeds...


Sure, by playing a published version of the game. And we can talk about those all we want in those game threads.

Where's the confusion?

Oh, you don't want to talk about the game. You want to talk about a specific product, don't you? One that currently hasn't been released yet but may become if funding can be raised through kickstarter. The admins have told you where such discussion belongs. Once its "publsihed" or released to the public in some form, then we can discuss it in the game forums.

That's the current policy. I don't like it. I think some of the reasons for it are sound, but others are mostly frivolous. I will continue arguing for the rights to discuss kickstarter threads in game forums whenever the need or opportunity arises. I don't know how I got stuck arguing the other side of this issue, but this is the admins policy as I understand it. I didn't create it. I don't enforce it. You asked what it is, and I'm telling you, based on the discussions I've had with an admin.

I've even given you the link where you can discuss the issue with an admin. Instead, you both want to argue with me. That's fine, I guess. But all I can tell you is the way it is and why its made that way. You can take the information, assimiliate it, use it as best you can, or you can keep trying to yell at it. You're call.

But if you really want to see the policy changed, you have to try to see it from everyone's perspective. Because nobody's going to listen to you if you don't seem to understand the issue in its entirety.

In case you're curious, right now our progress on this issue has amounted to an admin saying, "I see your point, and I will be talking with the other admins on this issue." For now, for awhile, that's good enough for me so I have backed off and encourage others to do the same. In the meantime, I'm going my best to inform people of the current policies and show them where the kickstarter family forums whenever I see a thread that looks like it may get moved there. The more people become aware of this forum, the less of a problem it will be to be restricted there. The admins may have restricted us from promoting specific kickstarter project, but we can promote the kickstarter family forums all we want.

The more people understand the policies, the more likely we can use them to our advantage or to get them changed if that proves unfeasible. At the moment, most of the people complaining about this appear to not understand BGG policy or not care about it, and why should anyone listen then?

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Absolutely and a very good overview.

Thanks everybody for the discussion. Some threads (like this one) do not go astray and wildly off topic and insulting and I dontknowwhat. I appreciate this as much as the fact, that nobody put this into the "complaint dept." = obscurity.

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