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Subject: Walnut Grove vs. the Village rss

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Chris Wood
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Wheaton
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Walnut Grove vs Village.

The third thread in my mini-quest to make sense of some similar games; which is the better game? Can you compare and contrast these games? Thanks!!
 
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Julia Ziobro
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Myoman wrote:
Walnut Grove vs Village.

The third thread in my mini-quest to make sense of some similar games; which is the better game? Can you compare and contrast these games? Thanks!!

These are both on my "want to buy" list so I've subscribed to the thread...
JAZ
 
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jood shine
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no contest village is so much better imo..village was my best new game last year..as well as been very well made..good quality and gorgeous art work it has heaps of choices - lots of skill with a bit of random to make it last for many many plays

walnut grove.yes its nice looking but i found it very lacking in game choices,and it felt very samey..a lot of work game wise for not many points..shame as it had some nice things such as placing the tiles and cubes..i would have liked the game to expand on that a bit..sadly this soon went to the charity shop..tried to like it but no..village is so much more superior than this.
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David Boeren
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I hadn't heard of Village, so thanks for bringing it to my attention, it sounds pretty cool.

I haven't played Walnut Grove either (I had heard of it), but the name reminds me of that stupid Little House on the Prairie TV show and Village doesn't so that's another point for Village
 
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jood shine
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sp funny..village has so much going for it!
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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I looked at both of those (and also at Helvetia which is not readily available here yet), and bought Walnut Grove. I just got it, and have only played 3 solo games so far.

Village is apparently substantially heavier than WG (3.0 vs. 2.4), so that could be a pro or a con for you. (You said you prefer Stone Age over Agricola).

WG is considerably quicker, partly because much of the game can be played simultaneously.

Village may have more interaction, but I don't mind that the only player interaction in WG is in the town. In fact I'm a bit nervous that the town will be too crowded with 4 players.

For me, WG seems to have an elegant simplicity to it. Just based on my 3 solo games so far, it seems like there is a lot of subtle depth to explore. It's definitely an optimization game, where every point matters. There are no 60-point swings here. There appear to be multiple viable paths to victory. Maybe it will turn out to be samey, but it doesn't appear that way so far.

To me, Helvetia seems like the most innovative, with a ton of interaction but in a win-win way rather than via blocking or attacks.
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Eugene
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peakhope wrote:
In fact I'm a bit nervous that the town will be too crowded with 4 players.

I prefer WG with just two. I don't mind screwage, but in the 4p game, the town screwage is oftentimes completely unintended. To me, this is actually more distasteful.
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Burkhard Nierhaus
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jood wrote:
no contest village is so much better imo..village was my best new game last year..as well as been very well made..good quality and gorgeous art work it has heaps of choices - lots of skill with a bit of random to make it last for many many plays

walnut grove.yes its nice looking but i found it very lacking in game choices,and it felt very samey..a lot of work game wise for not many points..shame as it had some nice things such as placing the tiles and cubes..i would have liked the game to expand on that a bit..sadly this soon went to the charity shop..tried to like it but no..village is so much more superior than this.


You`re so right. I sold Walnut Grove after the first Game (in fact we didnt even finished it)
 
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jood shine
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i so tried to like walnut grove..i mean it looked nice. i liked the tile placement but...just shows how different we all are..must admit i get really alarmed when i hear people going to buy it as i think its so dire!

was glad of the feedback here for helvitia - its on my list!
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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Boogien wrote:
You`re so right. I sold Walnut Grove after the first Game (in fact we didnt even finished it)

jood wrote:
i so tried to like walnut grove..i mean it looked nice. i liked the tile placement but...just shows how different we all are..must admit i get really alarmed when i hear people going to buy it as i think its so dire!

Wow. It would be great to hear what both of you found in the game that was so terrible. Perhaps you could post something in the General forum for Walnut Grove itself, to foster a discussion.

I'm all for differing tastes, believe me. I can't stand some very popular games, and love some that other people think are duds. But I always want to understand which aspects of a game are turning some people on and others off. I can only imagine a couple things about WG that would cause people to abandon a game in the middle, or to call it "dire":

- There are a couple big gaps in the rulebook
- The food/heating requirements can seem daunting (but they aren't as bad as they might appear)
 
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Shayne Gray
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I have Walnut Grove sitting in an order being held up by a pre-order and I am going to get Village as soon as TMG gets it over here.

I really want to try both games and am looking forward to playing them.
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Kathy Sheets
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peakhope wrote:
[
Wow. It would be great to hear what both of you found in the game that was so terrible. Perhaps you could post something in the General forum for Walnut Grove itself, to foster a discussion.

I'm all for differing tastes, believe me. I can't stand some very popular games, and love some that other people think are duds. But I always want to understand which aspects of a game are turning some people on and others off. I can only imagine a couple things about WG that would cause people to abandon a game in the middle, or to call it "dire":




I know what you mean, Kevin. I avoided a game (Kingdom Builder, not trying to derail thread) for quite awhile because of all the negativity and it has been 'the' game for us. Everyone has such differing experiences and opinions. And what's a plus for some is a negative for others. I know some people who adore Walnut Grove though I haven't played it myself.
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Hoyle A
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Mamadallama wrote:
peakhope wrote:
[
Wow. It would be great to hear what both of you found in the game that was so terrible. Perhaps you could post something in the General forum for Walnut Grove itself, to foster a discussion.

I'm all for differing tastes, believe me. I can't stand some very popular games, and love some that other people think are duds. But I always want to understand which aspects of a game are turning some people on and others off. I can only imagine a couple things about WG that would cause people to abandon a game in the middle, or to call it "dire":




I know what you mean, Kevin. I avoided a game (Kingdom Builder, not trying to derail thread) for quite awhile because of all the negativity and it has been 'the' game for us. Everyone has such differing experiences and opinions. And what's a plus for some is a negative for others. I know some people who adore Walnut Grove though I haven't played it myself.


I agree with both of you here... WG for me was just "meh" but had a lot of potential. I've only played it once, but here are my impressions, FWIW:

What's good about WG: WG takes the Carcassonne(ish) tile mechanism and really expands it in an interesting way. It has tight resource management, and there are ways to mitigate the randomness associated with the order of the "years". It plays quickly.

What's bad about WG: It makes no sense. Seriously, I'm a euro gamer, and I don't need much in the way of theme integration, but explain to me why I have a barn that can only hold 4 coins? Why does my stone need to be kept indoors? Why does it take me more than a year to walk around the town (rondel)? Why are there yellow people and why do I have to feed them grain? And blue people that only eat fish? How do I know in the spring that winter will be extra cold this year? Why is turn order so... insane?

It's a neat tile laying game with resource management, but the useless rondel mechanism and completely arbitrary restrictions made me want to redesign it. I'd replace the "town" with a more straightforward worker placement system and use the storage barns only for grain and fish, even if I had to make them smaller.

So, for me it was a big miss, sadly. I WANT to like it, but I can't see myself playing it again without being irritated by the nonsense. I have no problem with (e.g.) Hansa Teutonica's absurdity because there's no pretense. (You're moving cubes around in fancy ways. Fine, I've got it.) But WG just seems overwrought and pointless.
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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jaiden0 wrote:
What's good about WG: WG takes the Carcassonne(ish) tile mechanism and really expands it in an interesting way. It has tight resource management, and there are ways to mitigate the randomness associated with the order of the "years". It plays quickly.

People keep saying Carcassonne, but I don't see much similarity there. I haven't played Alhambra, but wouldn't that be a better comparison, where you don't have to worry about matching sides, but instead you are trying to balance optimizing in two directions (buildings and wall in Alhambra, resource areas and fences in WG)?

I agree with the rest.

Quote:
What's bad about WG: It makes no sense. Seriously, I'm a euro gamer, and I don't need much in the way of theme integration, but explain to me why I have a barn that can only hold 4 coins? Why does my stone need to be kept indoors? Why does it take me more than a year to walk around the town (rondel)? Why are there yellow people and why do I have to feed them grain? And blue people that only eat fish? How do I know in the spring that winter will be extra cold this year? Why is turn order so... insane?

Ok, I'll give you most of that. But for me, a thin theme is "enough". Often mechanics that work against the theme (like some you have pointed out) are a big problem for me, but in WG they aren't. I can't explain why. The turn order seems perfectly reasonable to me, as kind of a reverse-Thebes.

Quote:
But WG just seems overwrought and pointless.

Those aren't words I would use based on what you said. Maybe "counter-intuitive", "goofy", and "arbitrary" would fit better. "Overwrought" to me implies complexity, which I don't see in WG. "Pointless" also doesn't seem to fit here, although obviously you are entitled to your opinion. Regardless, thanks very much for explaining your impressions!
 
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Hoyle A
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peakhope wrote:

Those aren't words I would use based on what you said. Maybe "counter-intuitive", "goofy", and "arbitrary" would fit better. "Overwrought" to me implies complexity, which I don't see in WG. "Pointless" also doesn't seem to fit here, although obviously you are entitled to your opinion. Regardless, thanks very much for explaining your impressions!


Fair points. I think I feel that the (IMO) poorly implemented rondel and arbitrary restrictions are pointless, not the game itself. Like I said, I do think it has potential, and I'm sure there are a lot of people that will enjoy it.
 
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I'm curious about the comparison between Walnut Grove and Village. Village has been on my wishlist, but I'm not buying any new games right now. I've played Walnut Grove 24 times, it's one of our favorites. I sold Glen More because Walnut Grove replaced it for me. I like the way the board set up gives a lot of variation without too much setup time. I've played with 2, 3, and 4p, and 4p does have some unintentional blocking sometimes, though the simultaneous actions keep it moving, and keep it from being too long. I like that there are several ways to score points, especially when a strategy is combined with a bonus tile... lots of fences, and a fence bonus tile. Lots of people, and a people bonus tile.

I found it thematic enough (though of course there are oddities if you look for them). It fit us really well, and I have been very happy with it. It has also been a hit with the people to which we have introduced it.
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Richard Ham
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jaiden0 wrote:
What's bad about WG: It makes no sense. Seriously, I'm a euro gamer, and I don't need much in the way of theme integration, but explain to me why


I like finding thematic consistency in game mechanics (it can be a logical justification "puzzle" of sorts, I suppose), so I accept your challenge!

Quote:
I have a barn that can only hold 4 coins?

Don't think of them as "coins" but rather "basic supplies" (which is why they can have different values) that take up a fair bit of space (wagon, farm equipment, etc.)

Quote:
Why does my stone need to be kept indoors?

Once it's been gathered, it has to be kept somewhere. Also, consider the barns not so literally... they're actually "storage locations on your homestead" that could come in a variety of forms.

Quote:
Why does it take me more than a year to walk around the town (rondel)

It doesn't. The "going to town phase" is your biggest trip to town of the year, when you do one your one major bit of business. Some years, you stock up on supplies some years you hire new workers, some years you sell off excess goods. Presumably you go into town lots for little day to day running a farm needs, but you do *major* farm-transforming transaction a lot less often.

Quote:
Why are there yellow people and why do I have to feed them grain?

They're vegetarians, so they only eat harvested food (grain and veg, which are collectively represented by yellow cubes). Vegetarians actually did exist in the old west.

Quote:
And blue people that only eat fish?

Some people like fish, A LOT.

Quote:
How do I know in the spring that winter will be extra cold this year

Farmer's Almanac (been published since 1818 according to Wikipedia)

Quote:
Why is turn order so... insane?

The farther away from town hall someone is, the less likely they are to get tangled up in bureaucratic nonsense, so they get to act first.

To the OP, they're both EXCELLENT games with very different gameplay, so need to know more about what you're looking for... shorter/longer, number of players, depth, etc.?
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Chris Wood
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Can someone send sarah333 a virus or trojan or something? This is the FIRST time I saw this on BGG and it's CRAP!!! I'm disgusted. thumbsdown
 
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Kevin B. Smith
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rahdo wrote:
Quote:
Why does it take me more than a year to walk around the town (rondel)
It doesn't. The "going to town phase" is your biggest trip to town of the year, when you do one your one major bit of business.

I had the same thought. It does make sense that each year you would only do one major thing like hiring a worker or building a house.

It doesn't take a year to walk around, because on any given turn, you can literally go anywhere in town that you want (as long as it isn't occupied). The coin "tolls" are a metaphor for the inefficiency costs if you plan your trips poorly.

Quote:
Quote:
How do I know in the spring that winter will be extra cold this year
Farmer's Almanac (been published since 1818 according to Wikipedia)

I had the same thought. Accuracy of those forecasts is a whole other matter, of course. But all games use abstractions and metaphors. At some point, fun and gameplay have to trump theme.

Interestingly, the standard worker placement "can't put a worker where someone already is" limitation, which seems so non-thematic in Agricola and Stone Age, actually works pretty well here. I'm buying out this store's supplies for the year, or hiring the only available worker, so you can't do the same thing at the same place. Much better than "Oh, the neighbors are having a baby right now so we can't", or "The Joneses are baking bread in their oven today, so I can't bake in mine".

And the seasons in WG are very thematic. And burning wood in the winter unless you have a house makes sense. So it's not all bad, thematically. I would say that it feels less thematic than Agricola, but I think that's true for most euros.
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Hoyle A
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rahdo wrote:

I like finding thematic consistency in game mechanics (it can be a logical justification "puzzle" of sorts, I suppose), so I accept your challenge!


hahaha, I appreciate your efforts, but it still makes no sense. you have an infinite size farm, so a rock pile could fit anywhere. If a man is going to starve he will eat anything. If you only take one trip to town each year, why do you end up in the same spot you started in? What would town hall have to do with that?

Kevin: I agree about the wood. And I guess that WP doesn't particularly make sense either

Anyway, I don't expect responses to these. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from playing it. Clearly there are a lot of people that really enjoy it. It plays fast enough that I'd be willing to give it another shot, and I am sure I could optimize my tile placement a bit.
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MMB
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Myoman wrote:
Can someone send sarah333 a virus or trojan or something? This is the FIRST time I saw this on BGG and it's CRAP!!! I'm disgusted. thumbsdown



- I get the feeling that I missed something somewhere.
 
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EgorjLileli wrote:
Myoman wrote:
Can someone send sarah333 a virus or trojan or something? This is the FIRST time I saw this on BGG and it's CRAP!!! I'm disgusted. thumbsdown



- I get the feeling that I missed something somewhere.


I think there was a dummy ad post that has since been deleted.
 
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Chris Wood
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Yes I saw it and freaked. Thankfully, it has been deleted.
 
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