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Subject: Lannister Strategy to Victory - How to Completely Destroy Greyjoy Fleet rss

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Christopher M
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This strategy is primaily based on a 6-player game although I have successfully done it in a 5-player game and it should work well in a 4-player game too.


Quick Summary: Special Consolidate Power in Lannisport on the first turn, attack Greyjoy fleet as soon as possible. Take Pyke, have 6 ships by the end of turn 3. Continue on to victory!


I am convinced this is the best Lannister strategy. I have successfully pulled it off several times and in each case, it worked (although I did not always win the game). If you can pull it off, you eliminate your greatest threat--the Greyjoy fleet--and put yourself in a great position to win. It is an unconventional strategy, will make you look weak, and gets you 6 ships and control of The Golden Sound, Ironman's Bay, Pyke, and Harrenhal by the end of turn three. By Turn 4 or 5 you can get 6 castles/strongholds easily.

Lannister can be one of the most difficult houses to play with: You are surrounded by three possible enemies, you are only one of the two possible targets for the strongest military house (Greyjoy) at the start of the game, and you are lowest on the Fiedoms track. Greyjoy is tied with Tyrell for being the closest house to you by land and is right next to you by sea. It is clear: Your biggest threat to success is Greyjoy. So what do you do?

Let's analyse some popular Lannister strategies and then I will tell you why my strategy is usually a better option:


Popular Lannister Strategies

Skip down to "The Strategy: Completely Destroy the Greyjoy Fleet" for the specifics of this strategy and skip my discussion.



Allying with Greyjoy: Prepared to be Backstabbed

Allying with Greyjoy is a decent option. By allying with Greyjoy, you force him to war with Stark and you are free to focus on the south of Westeros.

However, I dislike this option. Alliances can always be easily broken in A Game of Thrones. And you can rest assured that you will be in a very disadvantaged position when the alliance breaks.

Because Greyjoy and Stark are fighting, Baratheon will see Stark as less of a threat and will likely be setting his sights on Harrenhal and your other lands. You can try to manipulate this so that Baratheon fights with Tyrell or Martell but I don't like leaving things to chance or leaving myself open for attack.

In addition to all that, there are 4 castles/strongholds in and surrounding Ironman's Bay. With maybe the exception to Riverrun (if Greyjoy allows you to keep it), you will be depriving yourself from those easily defendable castles/strongholds.


Marching Forward and Taking Riverrun and/or Searoad Marches

Riverrun is right next door. Easy to take. It is a stronghold and thus great to have if a mustering comes up during the Westeros phase of turn 2.

Greyjoy can easily take Riverrun on Turn 1 if he wants too since he acts after you and is higher up on the Fiedoms track. Because of this, you do not want a direct battle with Greyjoy over Riverrun as you will lose.

If a mustering does not come up (or even if it does), Greyjoy can still take Riverrun. Your best defence here is to continuously raid the Greyjoy ships. This will likely start to anger Greyjoy and your ships will be in a weak position if it comes to a direct fight.

If you move into Searoad Marches, you will be a threat to Tyrell and he and Greyjoy will likely attack you. I think Lannister has enough problems without having Tyrell as a enemy. Tyrell has enough enemies that he will likely be okay with Lannister as long as you do not take Searoad Marches.


Allying with Stark: It might even work!

Greyjoy is your biggest treat at the start of the game. Why not ally with Stark against Greyjoy?

This plan may work if Stark really keeps his word and actively helps you. If you two work together, Greyjoy can be easily destroyed. But be prepared to then fight Stark for Greyjoy's lands.

Some problems with this approach:

Stark starts the game without a fleet on The Bay of Ice. Greyjoy's fleet is stronger than yours. If Greyjoy takes The Golden Sound, you are in a really bad position and even an alliance with Stark will make it hard to come back from. Stark is far from everyone. His best way to travel is by ship but to get enough ships to the Sunset Sea will take at least two turns.

Since you and Stark are focusing on Greyjoy, Greyjoy will be weak and you two will be strong. This will likely result in one of the following: Tyrell attacks you, Baratheon attacks Stark, or Baratheon/Tyrell try to kill Martell. All of those options are not very good. If Baratheon/Tyrell attack Martell, your two neighbours become stronger and will likely move onto you next.

If possible, get Stark to put pressure on Greyjoy but still focus on destroying the Greyjoy fleet.


The Strategy: Completely Destroy the Greyjoy Fleet

Greyjoy starts the game with an extra ship, is higher up on the Fiefdom track, AND has the Steel Blade. Why would you risk a fight with him? Because, you are his closest enemy and Greyjoy will likely attack you when he is stronger anyway. Let's dispose of Greyjoy while he is at his weakest. But how? Greyjoy gets no special star orders to use at the start of the game. Let's use this weakness to destroy him!


Turn 1



The Golden Sound: March +1* - Move your ship to the Sunset Sea to make room for more ships and to potentially support attacks later. Make peace with Tyrell.

Stoney Sept: March +0 - Take Harrenhal. No other player can reach Harrenhal this turn. This will get you an extra unit if Mustering comes up. You will be slightly power-deprived in this strategy, so I think it is best to save your power token and not leave one in Stoney Sept.

Lannisport: Consolidate Power* - Muster two ships in Sunset Sea.


Turn 2



Sunset Sea: Support +1* - If Greyjoy raids you, he is wasting a potential defence order anyway. If he doesn't raid you, even better.

The Golden Sound: March +1* - Your base strength will be 3 or 5 depending on if Greyjoy raided you or not. Greyjoy's strength will hopefully be between 2-3, possibly up to 5-7 if there was a Mustering this turn, or maybe even more than that if there was both a Mustering and Clash of Kings (more star orders allowed). Don't count on being able to win, but if you are garenteed to win, use both ships to attack Greyjoy. If you win the battle, the Greyjoy treat is already pretty much eliminated. If not, you may consider attacking Greyjoy and playing a weak card (Tyrion is a good choice) to try to waste his good cards.

Lannisport: Consolidate Power* - Muster 1 ship and upgrade your footman to a siege engine.

Harrenhal: Consolidate Power - The best bet here is to consolidate power, especially if Riverrun has not been taken by Greyjoy yet. You can also try to move into Crackclaw Point but that will provoke Baratheon.


Turn 3



Harrenhal: Consolidate Power - By now Greyjoy may have Riverrun. Consolidate power may still be worth the risk.

Sunset Sea: Support +1* - If you have not yet taken Ironman's bay, this is going to be the turn to do it. This order may be raided by either Greyjoy or Tyrell. Hopefully, Tyrell will not have anything against you at this point.

The Golden Sound: March +1* - Take Ironman's Bay this tun, if possible. Be sure to leave one ship behind to transport your siege engine from Lannisport.

Lannisport: March +0 - Take Pyke with your siege engine. Bring your knight only if you need to in order to ensure victory. Convert the two Greyjoy ships into Lannister ships. You should now have 6 ships and be in a perfect position to eleminate Greyjoy and control the 4 stronghold and 1 castle around Ironman's Bay and The Golden Sound. With Harrenhal, you now have 6 stronghold/castles. Win the game next turn.




Possible Problems with this Strategy

This strategy does not rely on Mustering or Supply cards coming up. They do not influence the strategy much. However, when those cards come up, other players will likely get a slight advantage since you did not go out of your way to get barrels and castles/stronghold (besides Harrenhal). If just one Muster comes up, you should be fine; it can even speed up this strategy. If two Musters come up, you only have one castle and one stronghold and will probably already be at the supply limit. Other players will probably gain a significant advantage if they are able to use that second Muster effectively.

A possible problem is that you may be a little power-deprived compared to other players. Your forces in Lannisport have effectively stayed there for two whole turns. The plus side to this is that you did not leave any power tokens behind which other players, especially Greyjoy, would have needed to do.

The last thing I need to bring up is that by turn 3 or 4 (or maybe sooner) Greyjoy would likely already have Riverrun and would be preparing an attack on Lannisport. You should control the seas by this point and should be able to safely support without fearing any raids. Just keep this in mind in case Greyjoy decided to move on Lannisport before you have secured Ironman's Bay and Pyke.


Conclusion

I think this is the most versitile strategy for Lannister. If things do not work out well and you are unable to take Pyke, you will still be in a very defensive position and can allow other players to fight each other, waiting for the perfect time to attack.

Since you only control 3-4 areas and have only 2 victory points for most of the first three turns, other players will not see you as a threat and will likely even help you out against Greyjoy. After, you take Pyke that will be a completely different story, but by then, it will be too late for them.

Hope this helps out people who were having problems playing as Lannister. Go Lannisters!
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Travis Dean
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I really like the idea of this strategy. I do have some concerns, such as musterings coming up as you mentioned, and I'd like to look into Greyjoy counterattacks to get a better idea of how this would play out in practice.

Did you do this in any PBFs? Even if it does leave Lannister slightly weaker than the other houses in the beginning, if it's a way for him to overtake Greyjoy, then ultimately it can put Lannister in a very strong position, I think.
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JohnnyC Waytobe
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Having fallen into playing Greyjoy in about half of my 20 games, I definitely have a good feel for how Greyjoy would view this strategy - terrifying. My utmost goal as Greyjoy is to immediately destroy the Lannister fleet because - alliance or no - I'm about 50 times safer if they don't have any ships. I'd give up Seagard to be able to wipe their navy. There's not a whole lot Greyjoy can do to counter this, other than push hard and fast at Lannisport. If I see a *CP in Lannisport, I'll feel better about taking Riverrun AND Seagard on turn one. If there's a mustering then I'm sitting pretty on 7 mustering points. If there's not, then I'm primed to plow into Lannisport on Turn Two. (Knight, +0 march, Aeron->Balon --to counter Tyrion--, sword would win there.)
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Christopher M
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Dolus wrote:
I really like the idea of this strategy. I do have some concerns, such as musterings coming up as you mentioned, and I'd like to look into Greyjoy counterattacks to get a better idea of how this would play out in practice.

Did you do this in any PBFs? Even if it does leave Lannister slightly weaker than the other houses in the beginning, if it's a way for him to overtake Greyjoy, then ultimately it can put Lannister in a very strong position, I think.


I'm currently executing it in AGOT 2ed PBF #13: Stick 'em with the pointy end. although in that game I never moved the ship into Sunset Sea (which I should have and would have made things easier; I was just coming up with this strategy at the start of that game, after I had seen several games where Lannisters got completely eliminated).

There are definitely weaknesses, as any strategy. What I like about it, is that you are never in a very vulnerable position to get eliminated, as Lannister often is, especially if they are forced to go up 1-on-1 militarily against Greyjoy.

The strongest Greyjoy counter attack is to take Riverrun and sprint for Lannisport but that will still take 2-3 turns and if Lannister sees it coming, he can keep his footman in Stoney Sept for support. The Golden Sound should not be relied on for support as it can easily be raided.

Even if you are forced to leave/lose Lannisport entirely in order to take Pyke, it is definitely worth it, as you get two ships and completely wipe out your greatest threat in the game! After you take Pyke, you should be easily able to take Lannisport back with the help of support from The Golden Sound.

If no mustering card comes up in turns 2 and 3, you can wipe out Greyjoy completely without them being able to do anything about it.

If mustering comes up on Turn 2: This is the second best possible scenario. You will be able to muster your ship and siege engine in Lannisport before placing your turn 2 orders.

By moving your ship into Sunset Sea, you are limiting Greyjoy's navy growth. If mustering comes up and Greyjoy decides to muster two ships in Ironman's Bay, you will need to hold back a little and wait for any of the following: a) Greyjoy forgetting or choosing not to raid Sunset Sea, b) Storm of Swords, or c) A Game of Thrones bidding to give you the edge on Fiefdoms. In the mean time, focus on gaining power to facilitate getting higher on the Fiefdoms track.
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Csaba Sugár
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I also like the idea, however I have some concerns. What if Greyjoy takes Riverrun in the first run? It is doable and then Greyjoy get 3 castles. If a mustering comes up then they can get insane amount of troops in turn two. Combine that with the cards and the Valyrian steel...
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Christopher M
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somatic wrote:
I also like the idea, however I have some concerns. What if Greyjoy takes Riverrun in the first run? It is doable and then Greyjoy get 3 castles. If a mustering comes up then they can get insane amount of troops in turn two. Combine that with the cards and the Valyrian steel...


One possible thing to do if Riverrun gets taken on turn 1: On your consolidate power order, instead of mustering two ships in The Golden Sound, muster 1 ship and upgrade your footman to a siege engine now (instead of during turn 2). On the next turn, you can place a march on Lannisport, take Riverrun back, and possibly even use Gregor to destroy any troops there (probably only worth it if there are at least two troops).
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Csaba Sugár
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1awesomeguy wrote:
One possible thing to do if Riverrun gets taken on turn 1: On your consolidate power order, instead of mustering two ships in The Golden Sound, muster 1 ship and upgrade your footman to a siege engine now (instead of during turn 2). On the next turn, you can place a march on Lannisport, take Riverrun back, and possibly even use Gregor to destroy any troops there (probably only worth it if there are at least two troops).


Now this cannot be done if Riverrun get a support from Seaguard (7 vs 4, Greyjoy play Balon and win) This can be amended with a support from Harrenhal though.

Also a note that you cannot take the empty Pyke with a single siege engine if the Greyjoy have Balon because of the garrison rules.
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Ned Stark
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One potential challenge you didn't mention is Greyjoy marching into the Golden Sound once you leave it for Sunset Sea on Turn 1. Greyjoy acts after Lannister on Turn 1, so if they put a march token down, perhaps planning to take Sunset Sea, they could easily take the Golden Sound instead. Since they only have two marches, this would prevent them from either moving land units out of Pyke on Turn 1 or holding onto Ironman's Bay with their other ship (i.e. they can't do all 3), so it's probably unlikely. However, it might be worth it for them to take the Golden Sound and hope for a mustering card to muster some ships in Ironman's Bay. If no mustering comes up, Lannister is in pretty good shape. If it does come up, Lannister could raid Ironman's Bay from Sunset Sea and then march 2 or 3 ships from Lannisport to take back the Golden Sound. I think you could still execute the strategy from here on out if you can act first, but you would be vulnerable to Victarion if Greyjoy attacks first. It could get pretty messy though, especially if Greyjoy is marching on Lannisport over land.

EDIT: Also just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to post this strategy in such detail. I think it's really interesting and may try it next time I play Lannister. Last time I tried to attack Greyjoy by sea, it didn't go so well, so maybe this will change things.
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Christopher M
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somatic wrote:
1awesomeguy wrote:
One possible thing to do if Riverrun gets taken on turn 1: On your consolidate power order, instead of mustering two ships in The Golden Sound, muster 1 ship and upgrade your footman to a siege engine now (instead of during turn 2). On the next turn, you can place a march on Lannisport, take Riverrun back, and possibly even use Gregor to destroy any troops there (probably only worth it if there are at least two troops).


Now this cannot be done if Riverrun get a support from Seaguard (7 vs 4, Greyjoy play Balon and win) This can be amended with a support from Harrenhal though.


That's true if Lannister only sends in the siege engine, but Lannister has all of the following which can contribute to the fight including Harrenhal, which you mentioned: a) siege engine and knight at Lannisport, b) footman either in Harrenhal or Stoney Sept, c) 2 ships in the Golden Sound (probably Lannister should attack with these instead), and d) Kevin Lannister house card (best defence against Balon).

That leaves Lannister with a minimum of 10 strength or up to 12 strength if Greyjoy does not raid and Lannister supports from The Golden Sound.

Here is the breakdown:

Attacking units: 6 - siege engine and knight
Order modifier: 1 - march +1
Support A: 2 - 2 ships in Golden Sound
Support B: 2 - footman support* order
Kevin: +1 - Kevin gives footman +1
 
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Christopher M
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Joker328 wrote:
One potential challenge you didn't mention is Greyjoy marching into the Golden Sound once you leave it for Sunset Sea on Turn 1. Greyjoy acts after Lannister on Turn 1, so if they put a march token down, perhaps planning to take Sunset Sea, they could easily take the Golden Sound instead. Since they only have two marches, this would prevent them from either moving land units out of pyke on Turn 1 or holding onto Ironman's Bay with their other ship (i.e. they can't do all 3), so it's probably unlikely. However, it might be worth it for them to take the Golden Sound and hope for a mustering card to muster some ships in Ironman's Bay. If no mustering comes up, Lannister is in pretty good shape. If it does come up, Lannister could raid Ironman's Bay from Sunset Sea and then march 2 or 3 ships from Lannisport to take back the Golden Sound. I think you could still execute the strategy from here on out if you can act first, but you would be vulnerable to Victarion if Greyjoy attacks first. It could get pretty messy though, especially if Greyjoy is marching on Lannisport over land.


That is true. It was one of the things that I kept thinking about when I was coming up with the strategy. I came to the conclusion that it would be a pretty strange move on Greyjoy's part. If he knew this is what Lannister was planning, he may attempt it, but usually, I think Greyjoy would go for transporting his units into Seaguard and Flint's Finger (possibly Riverrun).

If he still attempts it, it would likely only make things easier because Lannister can still muster in port and Greyjoy would not have the support from the ship in Pyke's port. Lannister could eliminate those ships completely next turn with two march orders in Lannisport Port and Sunset Sea. All assuming mustering does not come up (mustering is only 1/3 chance on the first card).

Another thing Greyjoy could do is just attack the ship in the Sunset Sea. If I had a march order in Ironman's Bay, that might be what I would do as Greyjoy.
 
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Christopher M
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somatic wrote:
Also a note that you cannot take the empty Pyke with a single siege engine if the Greyjoy have Balon because of the garrison rules.


Completely true. If Greyjoy still has Balon, the knight would probably need to come along. A lot of times though, Greyjoy will play Balon in some of the earlier battles (hopefully when you first attack Ironman's Bay in Turn 2).
 
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Csaba Sugár
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1awesomeguy wrote:
That's true if Lannister only sends in the siege engine, but Lannister has all of the following which can contribute to the fight including Harrenhal, which you mentioned: a) siege engine and knight at Lannisport, b) footman either in Harrenhal or Stoney Sept, c) 2 ships in the Golden Sound (probably Lannister should attack with these instead), and d) Kevin Lannister house card (best defence against Balon).

That leaves Lannister with a minimum of 10 strength or up to 12 strength if Greyjoy does not raid and Lannister supports from The Golden Sound.

Here is the breakdown:

Attacking units: 6 - siege engine and knight
Order modifier: 1 - march +1
Support A: 2 - 2 ships in Golden Sound
Support B: 2 - footman support* order
Kevin: +1 - Kevin gives footman +1


Now this one would be a bad thing to do imho. If the Greyjoy put raiding on both the ship at Ironman's Bay and to the footman in Riverrun then both the sea support and the Harrenhal support can be eliminated. You cannot enter to Ironman. (even if the ship in Pyke harbor doesn't have support) [Victarion]

You also cannot change to mustering because it will get raided.

You can charge Riverrun with (7/3) but the best thing to achieve is to kill a single footman and a smart Greyjoy will use a +0 march on the footman in Flint's finger and that will cost you siege engine for sure and a loss of Riverrun again.

Edit: My bad, on second thought it is You will have two march orders the Greyjoy have only one. He may strengthen the support to hold Riverrun but no second strike...unless he puts a -1 March on the port of Pyke
 
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Chris Bryant
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I like this idea. But in the four-player games we have played, Baratheon walks to a win early and easy if Lannister doesn't harrass him. Accordingly it has seemed in Lannister's long-term best interest to enter into a non-aggression pact with Greyjoy for at least the first few turns. This pact has tended to hold up in the games we've played, because Greyjoy also recognizes the need to keep Baratheon in check.

So, why wouldn't the proposed strategy be fun in the short run but ultimately give Baratheon the game?
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Christopher M
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acbmml wrote:
I like this idea. But in the four-player games we have played, Baratheon walks to a win early and easy if Lannister doesn't harrass him. Accordingly it has seemed in Lannister's long-term best interest to enter into a non-aggression pact with Greyjoy for at least the first few turns. This pact has tended to hold up in the games we've played, because Greyjoy also recognizes the need to keep Baratheon in check.

So, why wouldn't the proposed strategy be fun in the short run but ultimately give Baratheon the game?


Thank you.

This strategy is primarily aimed at the 6-player game. I have pulled it off in a five player game. Never tried in a 4-player. I encourage thoughts from players who have played more 4-player games (and from everyone else too!).

If every 4-player game turns into Lannister verse Baratheon, and Greyjoy verse Stark, that would not be fun at all. I say, mix things up, try this out, and let us know

Most people think there are only a few ways to play the Lannisters. That is why they end up losing so often and why I tried to come up with a solid alternative strategy for them. I think the game is flexible enough to allow many different options.

I would think that if Lannister and Greyjoy are fighting, a rational Stark would be forced to attack Baratheon (as to not lose the game for everyone). If Baratheon has all his troops trying to take over the Martell/Tyrell areas, his homeland areas will be weakly defended and ripe for the picking!

It could very well backfire in a 4-player game, especially if Stark is not paying attention, and let Baratheon take over all the Martell/Tyrell areas for the win.
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Francisco Ramírez
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Very interesting indeed. I once considered a similar strategy, but since I couldn't take pyke by turn 3 (and I still think that if the greyjoy player doesn't make any mistake, you won't be able to take pyke by the third turn), I gave up and have been considering mustering one ship and one footman instead. However, after thinking this again due to this post, I came to the conclusion that even though you wouldn't be able to take pyke so easily, the edge you gain from controlling ironman's bay might well worth trying this.


Some commments:

(1) I am very convinced that greyjoy's best move is to take riverrun the first turn and set his mind to go against lannister, specially if the last seems not too content with the first taking riverrun. This means that if you want to keep that special mustering you place in lannisport the second turn, you will have to play a raid order in those ships you have in the golden sound. You may still attack with the ship you have in the sunset sea if you foresee this, but a 2 power attack will hardly make greyjoy discard any useful card (and you may be forced to use the hound unless you want to risk that boat).

(2) I don't know why you are not afraid of mustering. With the mustering power greyjoy has, he will be able to summon a complete fleet just with this (three boats on ironman's bay would be my choice, not so sure if I would put a second one on pyke's port but I would consider it), and if he does, you won't be able to kick him out of the sunset sea. Moreover; though a second turn muster may save you the trouble of mustering in lannisport or you could use that mustering for more troops (though I'm not sure this compensates for having to face a more powerful greyjoy fleet), a third turn mustering would be catastrophic (not only will you have less mustering points, but since you maxed out your supply, you would have to burn one of the muster points provided by lannisport).

(3) Why do you think greyjoy would leave power tokens behind? To keep greywater watch? I highly doubt that. Greyjoy would probably be free enough to be gathering power points (in the first turn he will probably have one more than you; the second turn you might get two, but greyjoy can get one more and, if he gets lucky, might even get two or three). Lannister will end the first turn with less, might match him the second turn (or not), and has a chance of passing him only if he gets to muster harrenhal the third turn. Not to mention that any game of thrones means 4 tokens more for him and only one for you. Although clash of kings is always an unpredictable card, you will most likely be worse than greyjoy to face it.
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Amin
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From a quick read through, it is definitely an interesting start up. Sunset Sea is very important in the Western naval arena and you rightly note and capitalize on that in your strategy.

As others have mentioned, it seems your strategy is quite vulnerable to an early Clash of Kings though and, as Nordico noted, mustering could be a problem as well. Then again, the other Lannister strategies are vulnerable to the wrong card draws as well. I'll have to give this strategy a closer look and look at the odds involved in each start-up.
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Lord_Ntanos Karkavilas
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I have seen this tactic win and fail at the same time in the last time my friends and I played. I was Greyjoy and obviously my Lannister friend had seen this tactic in this forum, since he did the exact moves. The problem with this tactic is that this game is not a linear equation. in turn one, Lannister really did muster in Lannisport(two ships), moved to Harrenhal and into the Sunset sea. We originally agreed to stay off each other, but as Greyjoy, i told his that by moving into the sunset sea would give me a Casus Belli against him (to much EU III). So when he did move into the sunset sea and into harrenhal. I took Riverrun with my army of Pyke, having previously taken Seagard with the lone footman. I consolidated my ship in Pyke's port. So after wards,came a mustering card and Lannister upraded his Footman to siege engine and added a ship in Lannisport's port to gain a Power token from the Game of Thrones card that came up, where I took 4 PT and Lannister only got 2. Strangely i did NOT muster ships from Pyke, but a knight. Round two.... The Throne of blades chose "no effect" or i would ge overpowered and the second card was " A clash of kings", where I chose to leave the Sword for the sake of the raven...and Lannister, without having enough Power Tokens ended up without Special Orders. He did indeed defeated me in Ironman's Bay,and he did take Pyke, but in the meanwhile, i took Harrenhal, having previously marched to the Stoney Sept, and Lannisport ( with Siege engine in Riverrun). I ended up with no ships. and Lannister had 2 in Ironman's bay, 1 in the Golden Sound, 1 in the Sunset Sea and 2 in Pyke's port(the ones he stole from me). The only army he had was the one on Pyke. In the next turn, supply devil came up and he had to lose one ship. He than raided/supported with his ships and tried to recapture Lannisport, but lost both the Siege and Knight!!! So he ended up with 5 ships and no army and no chance whatsoever to do anything than harass me me and eventually supporting Tyrell's and Stark's efforts against me. Tyrell finally won the game, but this story is just to show that for this tactic to win in the end, Greyjoy must be both unlucky (concerning Westeros cards) and "blind". You may take Pyke and the Seas around it, but you can't win that easily.
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Francisco Ramírez
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ntanos wrote:
I have seen this tactic win and fail at the same time in the last time my friends and I played. I was Greyjoy and obviously my Lannister friend had seen this tactic in this forum, since he did the exact moves. The problem with this tactic is that this game is not a linear equation. in turn one, Lannister really did muster in Lannisport(two ships), moved to Harrenhal and into the Sunset sea. We originally agreed to stay off each other, but as Greyjoy, i told his that by moving into the sunset sea would give me a Casus Belli against him (to much EU III). So when he did move into the sunset sea and into harrenhal. I took Riverrun with my army of Pyke, having previously taken Seagard with the lone footman. I consolidated my ship in Pyke's port. So after wards,came a mustering card and Lannister upraded his Footman to siege engine and added a ship in Lannisport's port to gain a Power token from the Game of Thrones card that came up, where I took 4 PT and Lannister only got 2. Strangely i did NOT muster ships from Pyke, but a knight. Round two.... The Throne of blades chose "no effect" or i would ge overpowered and the second card was " A clash of kings", where I chose to leave the Sword for the sake of the raven...and Lannister, without having enough Power Tokens ended up without Special Orders. He did indeed defeated me in Ironman's Bay,and he did take Pyke, but in the meanwhile, i took Harrenhal, having previously marched to the Stoney Sept, and Lannisport ( with Siege engine in Riverrun). I ended up with no ships. and Lannister had 2 in Ironman's bay, 1 in the Golden Sound, 1 in the Sunset Sea and 2 in Pyke's port(the ones he stole from me). The only army he had was the one on Pyke. In the next turn, supply devil came up and he had to lose one ship. He than raided/supported with his ships and tried to recapture Lannisport, but lost both the Siege and Knight!!! So he ended up with 5 ships and no army and no chance whatsoever to do anything than harass me me and eventually supporting Tyrell's and Stark's efforts against me. Tyrell finally won the game, but this story is just to show that for this tactic to win in the end, Greyjoy must be both unlucky (concerning Westeros cards) and "blind". You may take Pyke and the Seas around it, but you can't win that easily.



Seems to me that lannister was particularly unlucky with the westeros cards in your game. I am very surprised that, even after all that, he managed to take pyke. Also: Do you think your decision to not muster more ships was a good one? (you said that you didn't muster them from pyke, but I am assuming you didn't muster them from any of your other castles either) Whether lannister or greyjoy, control of Golden/Ironman's/Sunset would be one of my top priorities (it is the key for taking pyke/lannisport).

I'm also not very surprised you decided to give up the sword for the raven (despite starting with a considerable edge against lannister which is mostly based on having that sword, greyjoy players tend to get considerably frustrated by their lack of special orders), but it might not have been the best decision. I myself have become recently aware that the sword is much more important that it seems to be at first. If you managed to get one or two special orders, that's great, but I would try to get them without losing the sword in the process, SPECIALLY if it meant giving it to the lannister player (and if I was playing lannister, I would probably go for the sword). Balon+sword is quite a useful combination (you can win practically any battle), but The Mountain+sword is extremely dangerous (this card can effectively cancel those 3/4 muster points greyjoy had over lannister in one slash...).
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Eugenio -
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While interesting, I think this strategy relies on the Greyjoy committing a few mistakes, or letting down his guard.
I think the two main flaws in this strategy are:

-assuming Greyjoy won't take Riverrun in turn 1; Greyjoy may or may not do it, but you have to consider the case in which he does.

-"Turn 2

The Golden Sound: March +1* - Your base strength will be 3 or 5 depending on if Greyjoy raided you or not."

As a Greyjoy, i would always play a Raid order in Ironman's bay, thus it will be 3 vs 2.
Do you expect to win against Greyjoy in an even battle (it is even considering he has the Valyrian Blade)?
If he doesn't want to waste cards, he can just play Aeron and punish you if you didn't play the Hound.
By turn 2 Greyjoy will certainly have Riverrun, then if in turn 3 a mustering comes, Lannister will be in a heap of trouble.
And if a Mustering didn't come (considering Baratheon usually wants to muster the probability is 1/4), at least ACOK did, then Lannister would be in a horrible position on the tracks.


The real issue for any Lannister strategy is if in turn two there is a mustering or not.
If there is no mustering and Lannister used the CP* in Lannisport, Lannister can use this edge on the ground to defeat Greyjoy in Riverrun:
Orders: Raid* in Golden Sound, March* +1 in Lannisport, Support* +1 in Stoney Sept.
Provided you have mustered a KN, it is 2+2+1+1 [2KN+FM+March Order, Lannisport] + 1+1[1FM+Support Order, Stoney Sept]=8 vs 2+1+1[KN+FM in Riverrun+Defend Order or Support from Ironman's Bay] + 1 [Support from Seagard] =5 . With Kevan, Lannister is able to secure victory.
If Greyjoy didn't bring the additional FM to Riverrun, or took Flint's Finger, Lannister can inflict a crushing defeat using Gregor, destroying both Greyjoy units.
[Note: If you mustered a Siege Engine, you can play Gregor anwyas, but there is no way you can know if a Mustering will come or not]
If there is a mustering however, Lannister is in a bad bad shape, since at best he's got 3 Mustering points while Greyjoy has 6, maybe even 7 (Pyke, (Flint's Finger), Seagard, Riverrun).
Considering that the sword+Balon can potentially give +3 to Greyjoy in a single combat, the only hope for Lannister is trying to fight more than once, hoping to exhaust Greyjoy advantage.
But this is usually a poor course of action, since you will not have that many units to attack and force Greyjoy to use Balon and/or the Sword and still be able to stage another attack.
ACOK can change the balance, but I think that House Lannister has more to lose than to gain from it, because its starting positions on the tracks are globally better than Greyjoy's and it will have as many PTs as Greyjoy (or even less).


Finally, even in the "no mustering in turn 2" scenario, Lannister is somewhat crippled: he sits on 4 mustering points, hasn't gained any Power Tokens and is open to invasion by Baratheon or Tyrell.



Note that I'm considering the scenario in which Greyjoy takes Riverrun in turn 1, because otherwise Lannister is pretty fine.
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Francisco Ramírez
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Eu8L1ch wrote:
The real issue for any Lannister strategy is if in turn two there is a mustering or not.
If there is no mustering and Lannister used the CP* in Lannisport, Lannister can use this edge on the ground to defeat Greyjoy in Riverrun:
Orders: Raid* in Golden Sound, March* +1 in Lannisport, Support* +1 in Stoney Sept.
Provided you have mustered a KN, it is 2+2+1+1 [2KN+FM+March Order, Lannisport] + 1+1[1FM+Support Order, Stoney Sept]=8 vs 2+1+1[KN+FM in Riverrun+Defend Order or Support from Ironman's Bay] + 1 [Support from Seagard] =5 . With Kevan, Lannister is able to secure victory.
If Greyjoy didn't bring the additional FM to Riverrun, or took Flint's Finger, Lannister can inflict a crushing defeat using Gregor, destroying both Greyjoy units.
[Note: If you mustered a Siege Engine, you can play Gregor anwyas, but there is no way you can know if a Mustering will come or not]
If there is a mustering however, Lannister is in a bad bad shape, since at best he's got 3 Mustering points while Greyjoy has 6, maybe even 7 (Pyke, (Flint's Finger), Seagard, Riverrun).
Considering that the sword+Balon can potentially give +3 to Greyjoy in a single combat, the only hope for Lannister is trying to fight more than once, hoping to exhaust Greyjoy advantage.
But this is usually a poor course of action, since you will not have that many units to attack and force Greyjoy to use Balon and/or the Sword and still be able to stage another attack.
ACOK can change the balance, but I think that House Lannister has more to lose than to gain from it, because its starting positions on the tracks are globally better than Greyjoy's and it will have as many PTs as Greyjoy (or even less).



(1) If greyjoy didn't bring his additional FM to riverrun, there is only one unit to destroy.
(2) I think this is a bad play for greyjoy: I would only send one FM to riverrun and the KN to seagard to support. The other FM would go to flint's finger. Second turn, if you mustered the two points in an additional knight, I'm beginning to suspect you'll try to take riverrun, so I will put a march +0 in my FM in Flint's Finger. I counterattack with 1 FM + support from seagard (+2) and Ironman's bay (+1) vs your Riverrun units (5) + support from stony sept (2), that's 4 vs 7 which I can match using balon+sword and take riverrun back.

Result of your second turn: greyjoy still has riverrun, pyke and seagard (it may or may not have left token in flint's finger), but has lost a FM and Balon; you have lost the mountain (for only one FM) and tywin/the hound/other card (if you play any card other than the hound or tywin, you risk losing one FM and greyjoy not playing balon). This is not a bad outcome, but you still didn't recover riverrun so you need another turn without any muster.

An interesting detail of your plan is that you didn't move your units from stony sept, so presumably you used them to consolidate power the first turn, thus getting some very nice two power tokens. Most people think that lannister HAS to move that FM to harrenhal in case a muster comes up the second turn, but I have wondered if it was not a better idea to let it gather some power there (second turn muster is going to spoil your plans anyway, so...). If no muster comes up, you can retreat your routed units to harrenhal and you'll have it for the start of turn 3. A risk to take for an early two power tokens...

(EDIT: also, since you're supporting from stony sept, you might like to send one or two of your units there so they won't ALL go to harrenhal)
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David F
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Very well described.

I don't want to get into all the what-ifs with Westeros cards, but I really endorse the first-turn march from Golden Sound as something to look out for the first turn.

1. Greyjoy can take Riverrun if he wants on 1st turn anyway. You cannot do anything to stop it without great cost to your long-term position. This gives more long-term options to stop Lannisport and Golden Sound from being overrun, and buy you time for the counter-attack after all of Greyjoy's power cards have been used.

2. The raven on 1st turn allows you to switch gears depending on what Greyjoy shows you.

3. The early A Clash of Kings isn't that bad. At the least, another player might take the blade from Greyjoy, making your life easier.
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Christopher M
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Nordico wrote:
Most people think that lannister HAS to move that FM to harrenhal in case a muster comes up the second turn, but I have wondered if it was not a better idea to let it gather some power there (second turn muster is going to spoil your plans anyway, so...). If no muster comes up, you can retreat your routed units to harrenhal and you'll have it for the start of turn 3. A risk to take for an early two power tokens...


I thought about this a lot. Lannister can certainly leave the footman at Stoney Sept, giving him a good amount of extra power. If you do this and leave your forces in Lannisport to muster ships, you put yourself in a very vulnerable position if a Muster card comes up. It basically comes down to if you want to have a big advantage in A Game of Thrones or if you want to reduce your disadvantage if Mustering comes up.

If anything, you can consolidate power in Stoney Sept on turn 1 for the extra 2 power, then move into Harrenhal if Greyjoy has not taken Riverrun.
 
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Francisco Ramírez
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selwyth wrote:
1. Greyjoy can take Riverrun if he wants on 1st turn anyway. You cannot do anything to stop it without great cost to your long-term position. This gives more long-term options to stop Lannisport and Golden Sound from being overrun, and buy you time for the counter-attack after all of Greyjoy's power cards have been used.


You cannot do anything to stop it, period =P. You can make it hard for him by Supporting from stony sept and marching your units from lannisport; he will have to move his whole pyke army (FM+KN) but will still be able to kick you out (base of 3 vs 5, win using balon).



selwyth wrote:
3. The early A Clash of Kings isn't that bad. At the least, another player might take the blade from Greyjoy, making your life easier.


This has some true to it: you don't really depend on the raven as much as greyjoy depends on the sword. A COK can actually be something good for you if you are ready and know how to bid (I myself HAVE NO IDEA how to bid, I always end up performing badly here):

Iron Throne Track: This may not seem that important (as a matter of fact, there are some times when marching/mustering when you think "DAMN, wish I went after the greyjoy"), but when greyjoy starts raiding those important support you need for an effective and organized attack to riverrun or those special CP orders that let you compensate a bit your lack of mustering, you will begin to miss this.

Raven/Fiefdom Tracks: it will not be that important to have a lot of special orders but ONLY if you get to outbid greyjoy in the fiefdom track. You start with the raven and he starts with the sword and apparently that didn't turn out so well for you, so trying to take that advantage away from him is almost the only ways that comes to my mind in which you can turn the tables here.

So there you have it; you start with an advantage in two tracks, and have to try to keep an advantage in two tracks. If greyjoy outbids you in two tracks, he will probably get a bigger edge against you. It doesn't really matter THAT much who gets the raven, throne or sword, but it does matter the relative position between you two. Considering that he can have more power tokens that you if COK comes out the second turn, this is something to be worried about.
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Christopher M
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Nordico wrote:
selwyth wrote:
3. The early A Clash of Kings isn't that bad. At the least, another player might take the blade from Greyjoy, making your life easier.


This has some true to it: you don't really depend on the raven as much as greyjoy depends on the sword. A COK can actually be something good for you if you are ready and know how to bid


The worst thing about A Clash of Kings is that it gives Greyjoy an opportunity to move higher up on the King's Court track and gain a star order. Greyjoy cannot muster until a Muster card comes up or A Clash of Kings occurs.

If A Clash of Kings happens on turn 2, my suggestion is to try to get higher than Greyjoy on Fiefdoms and try to get as many star orders as possible, even if you need to use all your power tokens (there is always Tywin to get you some extra power). Apply lots of pressure on Greyjoy so he does not feel comfortable using his special consolidate power to get more ships in Ironman's Bay.

If A Clash of Kings happens on turn 3 or later, it will probably work very well for you if you try to get the Sword. You can easily crush any special consolidate power orders with your siege engine and control of the seas.
 
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Amin
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Eu8L1ch wrote:


Note that I'm considering the scenario in which Greyjoy takes Riverrun in turn 1, because otherwise Lannister is pretty fine.


Agreed, the fine tuning of this opening needs to consider the effects a Greyjoy move into Riverrun on first turn, which seems to happen quite often these days.
 
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