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Subject: Ameritrash designation OK so let's add some more categories rss

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Edward Pundyk
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parkrrrr wrote:
lcarrington1 wrote:
When did it become okay to trash America but we could not trash other subjects for fear of offending someone? If it is alright to trash America, the greatest country in the world, then everything else should be on the table.


When did we establish that America is the greatest country in the world?

(RSP in 3... 2... 1...)



Oh, round about 1776 or so...
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Mjrohs wrote:
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Drittz wrote:
I think some people might need to lighten up and learn to have a laugh at themselves. Really aren't there more important things to get upset about other than a gaming term.


Indeed. It really is just a bunch of geek's opinions anyway. IMO cheap block-pushing games = Eurotrash; and that's just how it is.

Does that mean I'll never play one? Of course not. That just means I prefer thematic games minus the mini children's blocks.


But what do you play with while waiting for your turn?!


We throw the extra dice at one another. devil
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fightinlegalist1 wrote:
parkrrrr wrote:
lcarrington1 wrote:
When did it become okay to trash America but we could not trash other subjects for fear of offending someone? If it is alright to trash America, the greatest country in the world, then everything else should be on the table.


When did we establish that America is the greatest country in the world?

(RSP in 3... 2... 1...)



Oh, round about 1776 or so...


If you're gonna go with that, you'd best at least say 1812. The British didn't take us all that seriously the first time.
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parkrrrr wrote:


When did we establish that America is the greatest country in the world?

(RSP in 3... 2... 1...)

For Americans? As soon as we received our citizenship.

For everyone else, in the early to mid 1940s. Of course, that happened before many of us were born, and may have been overlooked or forgotten by some education systems (not the least, the American public schools).
 
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sfox wrote:
Last time I checked I didn't see an Ameritrash category on BGG anywhere.


When did BGG become the ultimate authority on game classification?
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elgin_j wrote:
sfox wrote:
Last time I checked I didn't see an Ameritrash category on BGG anywhere.


When did BGG become the ultimate authority on game classification?


Just like Wikipedia... when the site is able to have requests for donations and people honor these requests.
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iidhaegn wrote:
[soapbox]
I still don't understand why anyone is offended by the term "Ameritrash." I'm not trying to reclaim the term, I believe it fully describes a very distinct category of game in my mind. It's just a word. The terms "Amerigame" and "Eurotrash" just do not sit well in my mind. Can't we just leave gamer terms alone? Ameritrash, deckbuilder, theme, depth. Seriously, just add a definition or something... BGG-[insert language here] Dictionary or something... Ugh.
[/soapbox]


There are many offensive and derogatory terms that clearly describe a very distinct category of whatever they are describing. That doesn't make them inoffensive, appropriate, or good.

Unfortunately, the term "Ameritrash" doesn't even serve to clearly describe a distinct type of game. Some use it to describe the relatively unsophisticated and unsuccessful games produced for the mass market (many of the short-lived games from Parker Bothers or Milton Bradley, where the rules fit on the inside lid of the box), others to all mass market games (including Monopoly, Life, Clue, Candyland, Risk, etc.), others to games with a lot of dice or dice rolling (Yatzee, Risk, etc.), others to games that involve a lot of player conflict (Risk, anything by TAHGC, anything by GMT, anything by SPI, etc.), others to games that are heavy on theme (Most games by GW and FFG, as examples), others to games that have lots of rules (ASL and other rules-heavy wargames), others to games that have lots of pieces (MB's "Game Master" series with A&A, FA, Shogun/Samurai Swords are classic examples, many of FFG's releases are current examples), others apply it to other characteristics, and still others require a game to meet several of these characteristics to meet the criteria.



You are fine with the term "Ameritrash", but find both "Amerigame" and "Eurotrash" to be uncomfortable?
Clearly you have a double standard regarding European and American products and cultures.

"Amerigame" + "Eurogame" = fair and consistent, without being offensive to anyone.

"Ameritrash" + "Eurotrash" = fair and consistent, while potentially offensive to Americans AND Europeans.


"Eurotrash" already has an established meaning outside of the gaming realm. It refers to people (often European, but some may just pretend to be from Europe to add an element of glamor to their image) who feel that their European roots (or trips to the great cities of Europe) make them superior, who feel that they are the trend-setters in the arts, and are not aware of how shallow, pretentious, similar, disposable, and pathetic they actually are.


Of course, that definition fits many (but certainly not all) "Eurogames" as well.
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John Watts
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joedogboy wrote:

"Eurotrash" already has an established meaning outside of the gaming realm. It refers to people (often European, but some may just pretend to be from Europe to add an element of glamor to their image) who feel that their European roots (or trips to the great cities of Europe) make them superior, who feel that they are the trend-setters in the arts, and are not aware of how shallow, pretentious, similar, disposable, and pathetic they actually are.


This bit really made me laugh! It's not quite the textbook definition, is it? More of a......rant?

"Pretentious? Moi?" (Fawlty Towers)



Edit Here's the Wiki definition for clarity: Eurotrash is a derogatory term used in North America for Europeans, particularly those perceived to be arrogant, affluent, and expatriates in the United States.
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Daniel Cepeda
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joedogboy wrote:
iidhaegn wrote:
[soapbox]
I still don't understand why anyone is offended by the term "Ameritrash." I'm not trying to reclaim the term, I believe it fully describes a very distinct category of game in my mind. It's just a word. The terms "Amerigame" and "Eurotrash" just do not sit well in my mind. Can't we just leave gamer terms alone? Ameritrash, deckbuilder, theme, depth. Seriously, just add a definition or something... BGG-[insert language here] Dictionary or something... Ugh.
[/soapbox]


Unfortunately, the term "Ameritrash" doesn't even serve to clearly describe a distinct type of game. Some use it to describe the relatively unsophisticated and unsuccessful games produced for the mass market (many of the short-lived games from Parker Bothers or Milton Bradley, where the rules fit on the inside lid of the box), others to all mass market games (including Monopoly, Life, Clue, Candyland, Risk, etc.), others to games with a lot of dice or dice rolling (Yatzee, Risk, etc.), others to games that involve a lot of player conflict (Risk, anything by TAHGC, anything by GMT, anything by SPI, etc.), others to games that are heavy on theme (Most games by GW and FFG, as examples), others to games that have lots of rules (ASL and other rules-heavy wargames), others to games that have lots of pieces (MB's "Game Master" series with A&A, FA, Shogun/Samurai Swords are classic examples, many of FFG's releases are current examples), others apply it to other characteristics, and still others require a game to meet several of these characteristics to meet the criteria.

You are fine with the term "Ameritrash", but find both "Amerigame" and "Eurotrash" to be uncomfortable?
Clearly you have a double standard regarding European and American products and cultures.

"Amerigame" + "Eurogame" = fair and consistent, without being offensive to anyone.

"Ameritrash" + "Eurotrash" = fair and consistent, while potentially offensive to Americans AND Europeans.


I do not have a double standard. Not at all. I just meant that Amerigame and Eurotrash (as referencing games) just seems like a silly person's attempt to make themselves feel better about the (very inoffensive and mostly meaningless) term Ameritrash. So I wish people would just stop saying them, and continue using Ameritrash and Eurogame. Those two terms are fun, they're only offensive if you let them be, and they get right to the point.

Whatever a person's definition is for Ameritrash (most of those you listed are just not Ameritrash, but that's a topic for another thread) anyone who's offended by the term needs to have their head examined. It's really not offensive!

I mean, to call a game Ameritrash:

If you find the phrase offensive, but you agree with it, well, maybe that game really is trash! If you find the phrase offensive, and don't agree with it, then so what!? Someone has a differing opinion from you about something you like! Welcome to the real world! And finally, if you find the phrase inoffensive, and you like the term, then welcome to Geekdom. You've finally embraced a lifestyle of happiness, fun, and many years of satisfaction.


Edit: Please don't take me too seriously! I sure don't.
Edit 2: On second thought, take me seriously. Too seriously, even!
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iidhaegn wrote:
anyone who's offended by the term needs to have their head examined. It's really not offensive!


Some people think that anyone who's offended by the term "Limey", "Frog", "Wop", "Kraut", or "Polack" needs to have their head examined. It's really not offensive!

Some people think that anyone who's offended by the term "broad", "wench", or "chick" needs to have their head examined. It's really not offensive!

And so on.

Once people have indicated that they find the term to be offensive, the civil and friendly thing to do is to stop using the term, not tell them that they must have a mental defect if they are offended by an offensive label.

 
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joedogboy wrote:
Once people have indicated that they find the term to be offensive, the civil and friendly thing to do is to stop using the term, not tell them that they must have a mental defect if they are offended by an offensive label.


No, it isn't.

If someone takes offense at people using a term for the wrong reasons, the civil and friendly thing to do is to tell that person why the term isn't really offensive.

Is "Impressionist" an offensive label? It started as such, but then it was adopted to describe a movement with common characteristics. Similarly, "Ameritrash" is a term that describes games with a high level of randomness, strongly thematic, based on player conflict and generally with over-the-top production values (also known as "lots of plastic dolls"). Anyone can say "I love Ameritrash games" without any derogatory intent and, in fact, the website you go to check on those games is called Fortress Ameritrash for a reason.

If someone comes saying he's offended by the term "Ameritrash" adding "America is the greatest nation in the World" (a statement which is wrong on so many levels one can't even start to point them out), the civil and friendly thing to do is to say "No, you're wrong. Ameritrash is not an insulting term", not to stop using a perfectly fine descriptive term because someone chose to be offended by it.
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Daniel Cepeda
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joedogboy wrote:
iidhaegn wrote:
anyone who's offended by the term needs to have their head examined. It's really not offensive!


Some people think that anyone who's offended by the term "Limey", "Frog", "Wop", "Kraut", or "Polack" needs to have their head examined. It's really not offensive!

Some people think that anyone]who's offended by the term "broad", "wench", or "chick" needs to have their head examined. It's really not offensive!

And so on.

Once people have indicated that they find the term to be offensive, the civil and friendly thing to do is to stop using the term, not tell them that they must have a mental defect if they are offended by an offensive label.


There is a distinct difference here. Ameritrash is referencing a thing. Every other term you've used there references a person or group of people. Calling a game Ameritrash would be like calling a car piece of crap. Or saying that an apartment complex looks like it could really use renovating. You may own that thing or live there, and that designation is either true or it's false. Either way, you should not be offended by someone's opinion (or knowledge) of a thing you own. (Can you imagine? "They called my car a piece of crap! My car's not a piece of crap! I'm offended by the term "piece of crap" because I find it rude to my car a thing I own! (And thus it is offensive towards my sensibilities at having purchasing said thing...)" [this is the part people tend to leave out])

Now, if we were to go calling the people who play Ameritrash games Ameritrashers, well, I suppose they may finally have something to complain about. However, it still just means "someone who plays a game I consider to be Ameritrash." And again, we're just calling you a person that uses a thing which I have given a name to. But at that point it's almost pedantic and I can see why someone could possibly be offended by that.

Edited a few times for clarity and precision.
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Sicaria Occaeco
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Betote wrote:

If someone comes saying he's offended by the term "Ameritrash" adding "America is the greatest nation in the World" (a statement which is wrong on so many levels one can't even start to point them out), the civil and friendly thing to do is to say "No, you're wrong. Ameritrash is not an insulting term", not to stop using a perfectly fine descriptive term because someone chose to be offended by it.


Ameritrash is hardly descriptive.
 
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Alberto Casarrubios
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Sicaria wrote:
Ameritrash is hardly descriptive.


Seriously? So I can say that Puerto Rico is an Ameritrash game and nobody would say I'm wrong, would they?
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Melissa Rohs
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joedogboy wrote:
parkrrrr wrote:


When did we establish that America is the greatest country in the world?

(RSP in 3... 2... 1...)

For Americans? As soon as we received our citizenship.

For everyone else, in the early to mid 1940s. Of course, that happened before many of us were born, and may have been overlooked or forgotten by some education systems (not the least, the American public schools).


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Betote wrote:
joedogboy wrote:
Once people have indicated that they find the term to be offensive, the civil and friendly thing to do is to stop using the term, not tell them that they must have a mental defect if they are offended by an offensive label.


No, it isn't.

If someone takes offense at people using a term for the wrong reasons, the civil and friendly thing to do is to tell that person why the term isn't really offensive.

Is "Impressionist" an offensive label? It started as such, but then it was adopted to describe a movement with common characteristics. Similarly, "Ameritrash" is a term that describes games with a high level of randomness, strongly thematic, based on player conflict and generally with over-the-top production values (also known as "lots of plastic dolls"). Anyone can say "I love Ameritrash games" without any derogatory intent and, in fact, the website you go to check on those games is called Fortress Ameritrash for a reason.

If someone comes saying he's offended by the term "Ameritrash" adding "America is the greatest nation in the World" (a statement which is wrong on so many levels one can't even start to point them out), the civil and friendly thing to do is to say "No, you're wrong. Ameritrash is not an insulting term", not to stop using a perfectly fine descriptive term because someone chose to be offended by it.


Really?

Using your argument, we should then ignore those (insert cutesy but insulting term about a group or nation) who are offended at assertions of American greatness (or whatever else they are complaining about) because those who are offended by (or disagree with) such assertions are obviously mental defectives who just need to have us explain to them (using tiny little words) how wrong they are to be offended by the truth.

Please note, this is not meant as an attack on the member from Spain, or the status of his nation, but simply an example of what he himself prescribes for others.
 
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Betote wrote:
"Ameritrash" is a term that describes games with a high level of randomness, strongly thematic, based on player conflict and generally with over-the-top production values (also known as "lots of plastic dolls").


There are people in this very thread who have posted other definitions of the term (many think of it as applying to "low quality", low priced, mass market games), so it is obvious that it is not a term which represents a specific type of game. It is more of a generic way to slag a game for a variety of reasons, and include a not very subtle put down of a nationality as part of the remark.

 
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joedogboy wrote:
Betote wrote:
"Ameritrash" is a term that describes games with a high level of randomness, strongly thematic, based on player conflict and generally with over-the-top production values (also known as "lots of plastic dolls").


There are people in this very thread who have posted other definitions of the term (many think of it as applying to "low quality", low priced, mass market games), so it is obvious that it is not a term which represents a specific type of game.

No, that just indicates that you're not the only person to misunderstand the term.

joedogboy wrote:
It is more of a generic way to slag a game for a variety of reasons, and include a not very subtle put down of a nationality as part of the remark.

In your mind, apparently. And it appears you'll stick with that, no matter how many try to enlighten you.
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Alberto Casarrubios
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joedogboy wrote:
Really?

Using your argument, we should then ignore those (insert cutesy but insulting term about a group or nation) who are offended at assertions of American greatness (or whatever else they are complaining about) because those who are offended by (or disagree with) such assertions are obviously mental defectives who just need to have us explain to them (using tiny little words) how wrong they are to be offended by the truth.


Well, if someone says "America is the greatest nation in the world", I don't see why anyone should be offended. If anything, shocked by the ignorance of a person who can't even tell the difference between their nation and the continent where they live

Quote:
Please note, this is not meant as an attack on the member from Spain, or the status of his nation, but simply an example of what he himself prescribes for others.


No need to apologize. Of course I didn't take it as an attack.
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Alberto Casarrubios
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joedogboy wrote:
There are people in this very thread who have posted other definitions of the term (many think of it as applying to "low quality", low priced, mass market games), so it is obvious that it is not a term which represents a specific type of game. It is more of a generic way to slag a game for a variety of reasons, and include a not very subtle put down of a nationality as part of the remark.


There are people in this very thread who can't tell the difference between a nation and a continent. That doesn't mean "nation" and "continent" are not valid terms; that just means there are people who don't know things.
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Although "America" originally meant the continent, I think that in this case, it can refer to both "America" can refer to both the United States of America and the continent.

Just like "England" sometimes is used to refer to "United Kingdom".
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joedogboy wrote:
It is more of a generic way to slag a game for a variety of reasons, and include a not very subtle put down of a nationality as part of the remark.


I'm really missing how Ameritrash is in any way an insult to (USo)America. Okay, maybe "it's a trashy game, and I associate trashy games with coming from (USo)America. So clearly (USo)America is inferior to [any European country], because Eurogames, the clearly more high quality, decidedly un-trashy product, come from there."

I suppose someone might be a little offended that their country produces inferior games to another country or group of countries. But seriously? What a silly thing to be offended about! Even if it were true! And if it were true, what use would it be to be offended by it? It'd be like coming from [insert country that produces inferior quality wine (we'll call it Blandica)] and feeling offended because crappy wines were called Blanditrash. (Even when they didn't come from Blandica.)

I don't see how this is putting down Blandica. Does this not make sense to anyone other than me?

(I think this comparison is accurate. And if it seems a bit silly, it's probably because it is! If it's not accurate, can someone please provide an accurate comparison that helps me see how Ameritrash is even remotely a jab at American culture, or even just America in general?)



Edit: stupid wordy sentences and having to figure out which verbs match which nouns...!
Edit 2: and being tired and just not knowing how the sentence even works :-P
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It is a stupid categorization, which does not help me in any way decide whether I should pick up a game or not. So if it goes away I am not concerned in any way. On the other hand seeing the Americans getting really upset about it, makes think that it should stay. whistle
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calandale wrote:
dboeren wrote:
The lines have blurred in recent years, but historically the term ameritrash made a lot of sense. You had the new high quality boardgames coming from Europe ...


When did we establish that games which fail to link well
to their subject matter were 'high quality'?


I never understood this mentality. There's nothing more "quality" about European games. They're just different.

I too hate the term Ameritrash. I don't view it as dissing America. I view it as a derogatory term for games with a simpler rule set. That's just my simple Ameritrash definition. The Eurosnob definition is much more verbose, complicated and boring.
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