$10.00
Richard Hutnik
United States
Poughkeepsie
New York
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Please work with me on this. There are a number of proposals to balance the game, and neutralize the HH. Well, to test these out, maybe it would be good to have a framework for managing all the ideas in the game. For this, I would suggest a look to the pie rule. In this context, it works as follows:

One player would set start conditions on the game, things removed (say British player removes X troop cards), added and so on, and classify the win conditions, like British player must win in 10 tunes (or whatever). Then the other player picks side they want to play.

Game would then proceed as normal. In doing this, maybe a bunch of play balance ideas could come about, and the testing of ideas would be more interesting. Yes, there is metagaming here, but so be it.

Please give feedback on this.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Eugene
Oregon
msg tools
mb
If we assume seasoned players, then fair splitting should be the normal outcome. But if fair splitting is possible, then this amounts to the elusive fix that all the seasoned players have been seeking.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Hutnik
United States
Poughkeepsie
New York
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
garygarison wrote:
If we assume seasoned players, then fair splitting should be the normal outcome. But if fair splitting is possible, then this amounts to the elusive fix that all the seasoned players have been seeking.


My take is that might as well try to make the finding of the solution part of the gaming process.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Eugene
Oregon
msg tools
mb
Perhaps. But as my friend who sold his copy of FAoS said, "I didn't sign up to be a playtester."
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Hutnik
United States
Poughkeepsie
New York
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
garygarison wrote:
Perhaps. But as my friend who sold his copy of FAoS said, "I didn't sign up to be a playtester."


So, you refuse to play a game where players can game the play conditions to their advantage?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
Merlin
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd rather experience the game the way the designer hoped it would be experienced.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Eugene
Oregon
msg tools
mb
docreason wrote:
So, you refuse to play a game where players can game the play conditions to their advantage?

I wouldn't say that. But any such game in question should exhibit a default state of balance.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
flag msg tools
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree with Cary, in general, but this idea does have merit.

We did something similar at Prezcon. Bruce said French couldn't win even if he gave me +30 coins. I showed him otherwise. Now, my approach might not work against him in quite the same way, but it certainly adds some interesting twists. And there are enough ideas out there that it makes for an interesting metagame. Propose a set of rules and then let your opponent choose the side!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Hutnik
United States
Poughkeepsie
New York
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
garygarison wrote:
docreason wrote:
So, you refuse to play a game where players can game the play conditions to their advantage?

I wouldn't say that. But any such game in question should exhibit a default state of balance.


I remember reading that, in games that are asymmetric, it is impossible to have a game be balanced. In the game, one side or another will have an advantage. Key is to be able to account for this, particularly in cases where, even if a game was extensively playtested, the game is robust enough to be able to adjust itself and allow for continued play. This is an idea I had in mind when I proposed this latest variant.

I also wanted to add that my idea isn't to have some sort of framework for playtesting some sort of static conditions to finally play, but allow the game to be played and challenge, even if the rules will be in flux.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Hutnik
United States
Poughkeepsie
New York
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
out4blood wrote:
I agree with Cary, in general, but this idea does have merit.

We did something similar at Prezcon. Bruce said French couldn't win even if he gave me +30 coins. I showed him otherwise. Now, my approach might not work against him in quite the same way, but it certainly adds some interesting twists. And there are enough ideas out there that it makes for an interesting metagame. Propose a set of rules and then let your opponent choose the side!


What could happen also is if you know what a player is strong at, you could move the game away from this, and see if he picks another side. You game the opponent by gaming the system.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Hutnik
United States
Poughkeepsie
New York
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
I'd rather experience the game the way the designer hoped it would be experienced.


And sometimes, a game will end up going in directions the designer didn't intent originally, out of necessity or input from the community. As it is now, A Few Acres of Snow is being moved away from because of the Hammer. The designer is doing another game using a similar system, but in a fantasy setting.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom
Poland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It may be good, but only for two experienced players. It won't work for someone experienced who wants to introduce new players to the game. Surely, an experienced player should still win against a new one, but still, he should win while the other player has at the beginning an equal possibility to win. Whereas, when given the set of rules, new player can't decide which side to choose and certainly won't suggest his set of rules for another player. While the experienced one can still run his hammer and win. So it's not a good solution for everyone, but potentially good for tournament play.

Overall, I think it's even more inelegant than limiting the governor to some strict least number of cards in the deck. Even more so, when I've finally tried Yucata (I'm not really into playing boardgames on the computer) and saw that the cards are counted by the game's engine, so the main inelegance of this solution almost disappears while playing online.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
Merlin
mbmbmbmbmb
docreason wrote:
garygarison wrote:
docreason wrote:
So, you refuse to play a game where players can game the play conditions to their advantage?

I wouldn't say that. But any such game in question should exhibit a default state of balance.


I remember reading that, in games that are asymmetric, it is impossible to have a game be balanced. In the game, one side or another will have an advantage.
Well presumably Martin thought the game was balanced upon release. It's why French have two fewer RI and more VP. Those surely were a result of his balancing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clyde W
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
flag msg tools
Red Team
badge
Merlin
mbmbmbmbmb
I mean if you really want to balance this game, write an AI program that can beat Tim when playing as Brits (and do well enough Tim when it's French) then have the AI play itself over and over again, making small tweaks to the ruleset until the AI wins against itself as Brits only 50% of the time.

That's a fun "game" too, but like Gary's friend said, I didn't sign up to be a play tester. I'd rather Martin do his job.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Hutnik
United States
Poughkeepsie
New York
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
clydeiii wrote:
I mean if you really want to balance this game, write an AI program that can beat Tim when playing as Brits (and do well enough Tim when it's French) then have the AI play itself over and over again, making small tweaks to the ruleset until the AI wins against itself as Brits only 50% of the time.

That's a fun "game" too, but like Gary's friend said, I didn't sign up to be a play tester. I'd rather Martin do his job.


I am not looking to balance anything as an end. My interest is still have the game enjoyed by people who enjoy it now, in face of the funeral procession that seeks to bury it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.