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Subject: Some Modest Proposals rss

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Craig Besinque
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New Denver
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Hi All,

A recent game crystallized my dissatisfaction with 3 minor campaigns in EuroFront2: Yugoslavia, East Africa, and Persia. I realize they are pretty small potatoes in the overall context, but still . . .

Yugoslavia
Currently Yugoslavia is a boring pushover. 5 units is hopeless to defend Yugoslavia. But no one knew beforehand that 2 (not 3!!) of the 8 Yugo armies would fail to resist the Germans. In EuroFront terms, they Capitulated. OTOH, 8 units do have some chance to hold a front, at least temporarily (especially with Greek help in tying down Albania).

So how about this: Upon Yugoslavian Pro-Allied belligerence (YX fails or Axis DoW), deploy all 8 Yugoslavian units (5 blue block and 3 black block). But the black block/Pro-Axis armies Capitulate to Axis combat dierolls of 1-2 (as Vichy/Portugal etc to the Allies).

This not only makes Yugoslavia a bit of a contest, but emphasizes the importance of having Bulgaria onside before taking on Yugoslavia, which discourages early (fall/40) attacks on Yugoslavia.

East Africa
The Italian 1A sitting in Ethiopia threatens the Red Sea supply / reinforcement route unless penned in by an Allied unit in Somaliland. Historically the Allies attacked proactively and took out the threat BEFORE Rommel arrived. This is pretty impractical in current game terms even with ME having combat support in the MF Southern Zone. You still need 2 hits.

So how about: make the IndF BG a mountain unit (DF in mountains). This give the Allies a DF unit to use against Ethiopia. Combined with one more 2-3 cv unit (and ME in Sudan) the Allies can now achieve an attack against Ethiopia with a 50/50 chance of 2 hits (3SF air, 2DF, 2-3SF, supported). The Indians were renowned hill fighters, should have had this status all along. Negligible macro effects as MF BGs restricted to MF, not a lot of mountain terrain there.

Persia
Persia is a bit of a shoehorn to get in to the ME Uprising mechanic, but hardly deserves a separate mechanic. The problem is that ME Uprising/Persia with the Soviets still neutral (Axis hurries in the Balkans, gets early Pacification, etc.) is that by themselves the Brits need 3 activations of ME THQ to squelch the Uprising in Persia. That opens the door to ME/Persia, then TX. Yes flukey, but disastrous and nothing the Brits can do about it.

The best solution I can see is to subsume the ME Mandates into the Surrender mechanic, where they can ALSO be defeated by conquering territory. Then the Brits can probably (looks to me) conquer enough hexes in Persia to force Persian Surrender with 1 or at worst 2 ME THQ burns. This takes away the TX prospect which is virtually a game winner IMO.

Whaddya say, guys? Been there at all? Sound like worthwhile fixes? See any problems?

Craig
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Pete Menconi
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Persia: Persia was not a concern until after USSR became belligerent, and the Allies wanted to ship supplies through Persia. The whole supply route thing is already incorporated into the Sov supply picture with the rule that the Teheran route costs them 5 PP if cut. Should ME/Persia be possible before Sov belligerence? It would seem historically, not, because the Persian king didn't kick up a fuss until it was proposed to start running supplies through Persia. If ME/Persia cannot happen until Sov belligerence, then the burden is no longer Britain's alone (again adheres to history), and a single Sov unit cuts National Supply, immediately eliminating the Persian army (1 cv each, no lower step), and Persia is defeated. The only real change to the game might be that the Sov puts an extra unit in the south, ready to pop Persia (and not having to leave any of the 4 critical Turkish border cities).
 
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Emanuele Santandrea
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Hum...

Good subjects to deal with...

1. Yugoslavia: I dont see any real issue with the current situation. Historically the Wermacht lost 45 soldiers in a 1 week campaign. In the game Yugo can have a 3 Step infantry and stay alive 3 forthnights nefore national supply is gone.
In the last game, Greece went on the Allied side in Oct 1940 (lucky shot) while the Axis failed RX till April 1941... failing it 8 times. I think this is unfair and should be considered as to be modified, expecially because the Yugo National Supply could not be affected till April 1941. Proposed solution: Speed up RX in some way, and avoid YX or DOW on Yugo before Match 1941.


2. IEA. The sttic usually goes out to put the strait in commanded status. Then it goes out of supply (unsupplied out of the base) and dies as soon as she got engaged... If it stays in Ethiopia, who cares...

3. Persia.
If Balkans pacified is avoided by Yugo YX or DOW before March 1941, everything should go well for Persia too.

What do you think Craig?

THIS IS AN EXCELLENT GAME
Forget to say at the beginning...
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Paul Lagerlow
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I like to play with the house rule to give +1 DRM for each failed RX roll. From memory at worst it will be failed twice (which is still a big enough hit). RX is way too much production to allow it be failed too many times just cause of unlucky dice.
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Craig Besinque
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Good idea Pete.
That's nice and simple and credible.
For now like that solution best.
Thanks C
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Alberto Natta
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Not too fond of the idea of making Yugoslavia stronger - unless that comes along then with the German possibility to have Croat - Slovenian units (Using the Pro-Axis Yugo blocks) no matter what.

On Yugoslavia Conquest if so a 2 1Step3Max Infantry of those 3 will be put in place - 1 in Lubjana and 1 in Zagreb.
They could as well represent nationalist forces to deal with Tito - and if the Germans want to arm them, be it so.

Usually there is a rush already to be in position for Barbarossa in due time and those changes seems very pro allied otherwise to me.
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Pete Menconi
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Cohen wrote:
Not too fond of the idea of making Yugoslavia stronger - unless that comes along then with the German possibility to have Croat - Slovenian units (Using the Pro-Axis Yugo blocks) no matter what.

On Yugoslavia Conquest if so a 2 1Step3Max Infantry of those 3 will be put in place - 1 in Lubjana and 1 in Zagreb.
They could as well represent nationalist forces to deal with Tito - and if the Germans want to arm them, be it so.

Usually there is a rush already to be in position for Barbarossa in due time and those changes seems very pro allied otherwise to me.


I second the motion.
 
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Pete Menconi
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cbesinque wrote:

East Africa
The Italian 1A sitting in Ethiopia threatens the Red Sea supply / reinforcement route unless penned in by an Allied unit in Somaliland. Historically the Allies attacked proactively and took out the threat BEFORE Rommel arrived. This is pretty impractical in current game terms even with ME having combat support in the MF Southern Zone. You still need 2 hits.

So how about: make the IndF BG a mountain unit (DF in mountains). This give the Allies a DF unit to use against Ethiopia. Combined with one more 2-3 cv unit (and ME in Sudan) the Allies can now achieve an attack against Ethiopia with a 50/50 chance of 2 hits (3SF air, 2DF, 2-3SF, supported). The Indians were renowned hill fighters, should have had this status all along. Negligible macro effects as MF BGs restricted to MF, not a lot of mountain terrain there.

Craig


This seems reasonable.
 
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Craig Besinque
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Cohen wrote:
Not too fond of the idea of making Yugoslavia stronger - unless that comes along then with the German possibility to have Croat - Slovenian units (Using the Pro-Axis Yugo blocks) no matter what.

On Yugoslavia Conquest if so a 2 1Step3Max Infantry of those 3 will be put in place - 1 in Lubjana and 1 in Zagreb.
They could as well represent nationalist forces to deal with Tito - and if the Germans want to arm them, be it so.

Usually there is a rush already to be in position for Barbarossa in due time and those changes seems very pro allied otherwise to me.



Thanks all. Sounds like IndF=mountain should work. No Persian Revolt until Soviets belligerent (when Sovs/Allies pressured Persia to provide a Lend Lease route) also seems like a non-disruptive plus.

Yugoslavia: yes it is a pro-Allied change. As mentioned, only 2 of the 8 Yugo armies really failed to resist, so one more unit would be fair. The Slovenian/Croat forces that fought for the Axis are already present in EuF2, subsumed into several German corps/statics deployed in the Balkans.

Yes there is a rush for the Germans to clear the Balkans and set up for Barbarossa. There was, and IMO there should be.

Nobody mentioned the Bulgaria aspect. The design intent was that Bulgaria be helpful enough w/r/t an attack on Yugo that the Axis will want to wait for BX before attacking (BX is a long-odds DE, unlikely to occur before Winter 1940, delaying the Yugo attack until Spring, as historical). That does not seem to be the case currently: against 5 Yugos, Bulgaria Axis is not really necessary, so the Axis can attack in the fall after RX with few negative consequences, setting them up for Greece to be cleared early also and an early Barbarossa.

My thought was to make Bulgaria/BX more of a factor in taking down Yugo cheaply/quickly by adding more potential Yugo units. I'm not sure this idea accomplishes that, but one more Yugo army is justifiable in any case and the Germans had to plan to fight 8 armies.

The bottom line for me is that attacking Yugo in Fall/40 is currently a Pro-Axis advantage compared to history, with little apparent downside. Clearing the Balkans early has obvious advantages w/r/t Barbarossa and also enables ME Uprisings earlier.

Any other thoughts on this, guys?

Craig
 
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Enrico Russo
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What about this:

- Put all 8 Yugoslavian units.
ALL of them capitulate on roll of 1 only.
This way you add a little chance to resist, without adding too much difficulty for the axis.



- Ethiopian unit is useless. It's only ever used to cut passage through Red Sea. Infact the Indian unit is put in Somaliland as soon as the front opens. This way it can do absolutely no harm.



- Persia into war before Soviet DOW. ABSOLUTELY NO. It happened in some games and it was disastrous. Turkey is too much to handle (5 PP for free).
So a rule preventing that would be nice.



By the way: we play with the house rule giving Rumenia roll a cumulative +1 each time if fails. And S1 / S2 rolls too.
They're too important to be left to fate.
 
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Juan de Marco
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all three proposals make sense.

I've seen the Yugo's cave way too easily (playing both sides) but a Yugoslavian 6th Army, combined with a prepped SHQ for the allies, can still wreck some things.

No Persian revolt until Sovs are belligerent is no more than logical.

The Ethiopian unit, well, as Enrico said, place the Indian brigade in Somaliland and you don't have to spend those THQ moves even. :S So beside it being a good rulechange, I'm doubting if it will have any effect really. You don't necessarily have to kill if you can incapacitate.
 
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Magnus Lindström
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Old post but...

Maybe this is how Yougoslavia should work if NOT Bulgaria have joined the Axis? No Bulgaria = Yugoslavia more willing to fight?
 
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