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Commands & Colors: Napoleonics» Forums » Variants

Subject: Starting a set of House rules. rss

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Carl Paradis
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I really like the C&C line of games (yes also Memoir 44), but for the Napoleonic Series, I was VERY dissapointed in it!

Here is my Comment on my ratings page:

I have downgraded my ration from a "7" to a "3". I much prefer "Memoir 44" and "C&C: Ancients". The infantry ranged fire is much too effective, also the fact that you roll less dice when your units have less squares left is a BAD idea: at first I thought it made sense, but it does not! Most of the battles I have played did not develop very far before they ended with one side winning: the losses were too awful too fast. Games were still very close, but I had much less fun than with the other games of this series. Leaders have not enough importance either. The final result does not feel napoleonic enough, and is less interesting than the other games in this great series. Pity.

So.. Yes, I have decided to forge ahead, and make my own House rules. The goal is to keep those rules as simple as possible, while getting back the "Command & Colors" fun into the game.

Right now I'll play my next scenarios with ONLY this add-on rule. I think it should give a much better game. Of course, the playtime will be a bit longer, but I do not mind, the games are far too fast right now, and end before some interesting situations can develop!

House rule:

POSSIBILITY #1:

Each block can now absorb TWO losses. The first hit will flip the block down on the board, the second will remove it from play. All the blocks in a unit have to be flipped before thay can start to be taken away.

Units will now have more staying power, so interesting battles will develop.

The other possibility is this (a bit less staying power for the fire):

POSSIBILITY #2:

Each block can now absorb TWO losses. The first hit will flip the block down on the board, the second will remove it from play. You must always take a loss from a flipped block if available, before flipping the upside blocks.

Not sure yet which one I prefer. #2 looks like the first one I will try. But #1 looks more realistic, and "in line" with the regular C&C system.


#2 is a less drastic change, though. So might be better.

Next stop: the Leaders!
 
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Guillaume Gleize
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Sorry but I COMPLETLY disagree with you!

CCN is OVER the other games for me BECAUSE of the relative power with the number of dice! I tried to battle with CCA and DIDN'T like it at all! So remember it may be a matter of taste and NOT MATHEMATICAL EXPLANATIONS!

I played many battles live & online of CCN and this game is much more subtile than the other one of the serie in y humble opinion. Maybe you charged too quickly and didn't prepared the battles carefully as it must be done with CCN! Maybe you just do not prefer this system ... but some other people LOVE IT AND PREFER IT!

So I won't touch the rules because I love them the way they are!

cool
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Guido Gloor
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Gee, so much bold text

Personally, I prefer C&C:A over C&C:N, pretty much exactly because of the way block losses work. That does not, however, make me believe that C&C:N is inferior or flawed, but rather, not the game I prefer among the two. Which makes me not attempt to change C&C:N into something it's not, but rather play C&C:A instead
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Carl Paradis
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GGleize wrote:
Sorry but I COMPLETLY disagree with you!

CCN is OVER the other games for me BECAUSE of the relative power with the number of dice! I tried to battle with CCA and DIDN'T like it at all! So remember it may be a matter of taste and NOT MATHEMATICAL EXPLANATIONS!

I played many battles live & online of CCN and this game is much more subtile than the other one of the serie in y humble opinion. Maybe you charged too quickly and didn't prepared the battles carefully as it must be done with CCN! Maybe you just do not prefer this system ... but some other people LOVE IT AND PREFER IT!

So I won't touch the rules because I love them the way they are!

cool


Then leave this topic, please, as this is for people who want to change/tinker with the game!

And, well, my House rule #2 is not that bad: at least the units have more staying power (but not too much).

I played the games as it stands now with quite a few players, and units melted far too fast, and were not able to return any kind of meaningful fire when they had taken casualties. So all that mattered was who fired first a lot of the time! So it was NOT a success, and after 2-3 games players I introduced to the system lost interest. I also know of some who raised the number of flags needed for a win, but I do not like tht solution.

Soooo.... Happy to see you Love the game as is, I do not, and I'm interested to hear about people that want, like me, to improve our games: you are obviously not of that kind. I am looking for meaningful input here.

And what about the "Lame" leaders? they just do not serve any really very useful purpose right now.
 
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Carl Paradis
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haslo wrote:
Gee, so much bold text

Personally, I prefer C&C:A over C&C:N, pretty much exactly because of the way block losses work. That does not, however, make me believe that C&C:N is inferior or flawed, but rather, not the game I prefer among the two. Which makes me not attempt to change C&C:N into something it's not, but rather play C&C:A instead


Happy to see me and my gaming group are not the only ones that thinks the same.

The more I think about it, the more my option #2 looks good. More staying power, battle swill develop more along HISTORICAL lines.

I have a feeling it's a "winner" house rule.

Now... I have to make those Leaders worth something else than a free flag for the enemy!
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Kent Reuber
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For me, the way block losses work in C&CN make sense for smaller linear formations. Once units start to represent larger formations such as brigades or divisions, where units may be arranged in multiple reinforced lines, I think it makes less sense. In larger formations, only the front ranks are firing. As losses occur, soldiers fill in from reserve ranks, so I'd contend that fire remains relatively constant.

You might try playing C&CN with modified Battle Cry rules. With smoothbore muskets, the ranges won't be as long, so you might consider making musket fire be something like 4 (1 hex), 2 (2 hexes), 1 (3 hexes) instead of the 4-3-2-1 ranges used in Battle Cry.
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Andy Pain
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Having played 100+ games of both C&CA and C&CN I guess you'd expect me to resist the suggested house rules. In my experience the answer in C&CN is patience and careful manouvre to get your units into position before launching a sustained attack having accumulated several complementary cards. I agree that defensive firepower is deadly in the game but it was in the wars of that time. Leaders aren't as powerful as in C&CA but combined with the Forced March or Leadership cards they can kick off some powerful attacks. No criticism of your house rules intended - everyone should be able to play this game however they get the most pleasure - but just an observation from someone who has learned from bitter experience that you need different strategies from C&CA to do well at C&CN. I also agree that sometimes games can be over very quickly but I prefer to be able to "set 'em up again and have another go" compared to games where the result is not in doubt but one player has to suffer a slow lingering death.
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Carl Paradis
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Andy Pain wrote:
I agree that defensive firepower is deadly in the game but it was in the wars of that time.


Well, this was not really the case in the great majority of battles! The Muskets were really not that effective. I think that less than 1 round in 1000 hit something in Napoleonic battles.

http://www.labataille.me/uploads/Musketry_and_Volley_Fire_mn...

In fact when you take a look at statistical estimates for the theoretical battlefield efficiency of all muskets fired (number of rounds fired divided by casualties multiplied by 70% as the total number of casualties in a battle caused by musket fire), without regard to range, the statistics show from .01% to 3% hits over the course of an entire battle which is 40 times less than the test firing statistics would lead you to believe. Most authorities today believe that the numbers vary anywhere from 200 to 500 rounds were fired per casualty
In fact it was so NOT deadly that cavalry still played a big role. Not so in civil war battles (riled muskets and percussion caps).



It COULD be deadly now and then (experienced troops in pristine shape, very short range, etc...), but most of the time troops blasted away at each other for long periods of time (and they used black powder: lots of smoke!).

This is why as the napoleonic wars went on (and troop quality went down), all the Armies relied more and more upon cannon for the real killing firepower.
 
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Carl Paradis
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Andy Pain wrote:
Having played 100+ games of both C&CA and C&CN I guess you'd expect me to resist the suggested house rules.


Ok no problem.

PLEASE:

it's just FINE that some people don't want to use house rules. I have of course no problem with it, it's THE WAY to play the game for most.

BUT, I have started this topic to get input from gamers that want to use house rules in this game. NOT to argue about if you should play the game "as is" or not!

So if you are not interested in using any house rules, could you please let people like me that want just discuss things over?


Thanks for your understanding.



 
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brian
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licinius wrote:
So if you are not interested in using any house rules, could you please let people like me that want just discuss things over?

Of course. But there is a forum for that called "Variants" for a reason. Could you please keep your discussions there for those of us who don't want to be notified of non-rule questions?
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Carl Paradis
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
licinius wrote:
So if you are not interested in using any house rules, could you please let people like me that want just discuss things over?

Of course. But there is a forum for that called "Variants" for a reason. Could you please keep your discussions there for those of us who don't want to be notified of non-rule questions?


There is? Not aware of this! Can I change my forum form one place to another?
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brian
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licinius wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
licinius wrote:
So if you are not interested in using any house rules, could you please let people like me that want just discuss things over?

Of course. But there is a forum for that called "Variants" for a reason. Could you please keep your discussions there for those of us who don't want to be notified of non-rule questions?


There is? Not aware of this! Can I change my forum form one place to another?

Contact an admin or click the red "x" at the top of this thread and select "wrong forum" to bring it to their attention.
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Carl Paradis
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Contact an admin or click the red "x" at the top of this thread and select "wrong forum" to bring it to their attention.


Done!

Many thanks!
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J
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Moved to from Rules to Variants
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Carl Paradis
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jmilum wrote:
Moved to from Rules to Variants


THANKS!!! Long live BGG admins!
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Don Smith
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Andy Pain wrote:
Having played 100+ games of both C&CA and C&CN I guess you'd expect me to resist the suggested house rules. In my experience the answer in C&CN is patience and careful manouvre to get your units into position before launching a sustained attack having accumulated several complementary cards. I agree that defensive firepower is deadly in the game but it was in the wars of that time. Leaders aren't as powerful as in C&CA but combined with the Forced March or Leadership cards they can kick off some powerful attacks. No criticism of your house rules intended - everyone should be able to play this game however they get the most pleasure - but just an observation from someone who has learned from bitter experience that you need different strategies from C&CA to do well at C&CN. I also agree that sometimes games can be over very quickly but I prefer to be able to "set 'em up again and have another go" compared to games where the result is not in doubt but one player has to suffer a slow lingering death.


I agree pretty much with Andy.

As a bit of background, I have played quite a bit of C&C:Ancients over the past year (32 games in Bruce Wigdor's Wargameroom.com league - I actually squeaked into the playoffs and made the semi-finals through good luck). So I like the Ancients game - a lot.

Within the last month I stickered the Spanish expansion and decided to take C&C:N out for a spin. I am completely blown away by how good the Napoleonics version is. It is more strategic than the Ancients version - you absolutely must have a battle plan and be patient and persistent in carrying it out. As Andy implied, there is a "decisive moment" in the battle in which casualties mount and units disappear, after a period of manuever and tactical artillery/rifle fire. This just "feels" right to me.

Most battles which I've played (about 25 - half solo and half FTF) were NOT determined by ranged fire but by melee. To simply move your units up within two hexes of an established line is simply poor generalship and you deserve to be blown away! Again, as Andy implies, a good C&C:N commander must build a hand up for the "decisive moment".

My initial experience with C&C Napoleonics has been uniformly good and each play has increased my appreciation of this brilliant design.

Sorry, Carl, as much as I respect you as the god who designed "No Retreat", I just don't see the need for a major fiddle of this game.

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David Boeren
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It really just comes down to CCA and CCN being two different games. They're not intended to feel similar, but some people expect them to because "they use the same engine". No, they really don't. They use similar engines, but each tweaked to the period and desired feel.
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Carl Paradis
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Don Smith wrote:
Sorry, Carl, as much as I respect you as the god who designed "No Retreat", I just don't see the need for a major fiddle of this game.



Thanks! "No Retreat!" Was my first design ever anyway, so I'm really not a God, yet...

The major problem I experienced is that units melted too quickly and that the game did not feel like a Napoleonic battle. Mind you we had great fun, but the "feel" was not there. It was even more aggravating because we did have lots of fun, but the games ended much too quickly. No time to manoeuver. We felt empty.

BTW try AT LEAST ONCE my house rule #2 before putting a definitve judgement here, please.

I am NOT saying that the game is not good. It is very good (hey, I LOVE the "Command & Colors" game system!). What I'm saying is that its not Napoleonic combat as it should be.
 
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Carl Paradis
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dboeren wrote:
It really just comes down to CCA and CCN being two different games. They're not intended to feel similar, but some people expect them to because "they use the same engine". No, they really don't. They use similar engines, but each tweaked to the period and desired feel.


True.

And this is exaclty why I am doing a set of house rules; The "period and desired feel" is absolutely NOT there for me in this Napoleonic series.
 
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Guillaume Gleize
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KSSS! KSSS! Go away you "REALISM OR NOTHING" player!

KSSS! KSSS! Here is the world of the balanced "PLAYABILITY/REALISM" players!

Don't touch thoses rules! They made us (and me) love the wargames! Because the "real" wargames (you know the ones with tons of charts and hundreds of mini square symbols going with the wind) ... are for some people ... SOOOO BORING!

VADE RETRO SATANAS! Let those guys keep on playing gently with their wives and young children! Why do you want to break all thoses nice families week-ends?

KSSS! KSSS! YOU WON'T PASS you satanic realism servitor!

devil
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Carl Paradis
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GGleize wrote:
KSSS! KSSS! Go away you "REALISM OR NOTHING" player!

KSSS! KSSS! Here is the world of the balanced "PLAYABILITY/REALISM" players!

Don't touch thoses rules! They made us (and me) love the wargames! Because the "real" wargames (you know the ones with tons of charts and hundreds of mini square symbols going with the wind) ... are for some people ... SOOOO BORING!

VADE RETRO SATANAS! Let those guys keep on playing gently with their wives and young children! Why do you want to break all thoses nice families week-ends?

KSSS! KSSS! YOU WON'T PASS you satanic realism servitor!

devil


Oh boy...

Go away please: you add nothing to the discussion. In fact I find you really boring.

BTW you obviously do not know me, or the games I have designed. As I strive for simple but realistic games, without tons of charts as you said.

Or... Just give some good input on house rules? And if you don't have any, then leave and go play this nice game!

Thanks!
 
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I legally own hundreds of polyhedral assault dice!
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Carl, based on my own experience with C&C:N, I think your suggested tweak will make infantry overly powerful. If you make changes to the game, especially to the way infantry plays, you may find yourself revising your house rules with each new expansion.

One thing new players overlook is that with the base set, you are introduced to the two most deadly antagonists in the war: The British and the French. The British are brutes with the musket. And the French are no slouches, either. But that's the way it should be. Other nationalities don't fare nearly as well against the French. Try some games where the British fight with the qualities of the Portguese and tell us then if the game is still too deadly!

Still, with each new C&C title, I have to "unlearn" some things. Early on, while playing C&C:N, I realized that I was bringing tactics over from the Ancients game and trying to apply them in the Napoleonics game—and failing miserably. I remember thinking, "This game is too deadly!" But after getting a crack at more games with several different opponents and BGGer sduke, I realised that you need to at least try and develop a plan and a hand before committing to an attack, as Don suggests. Especially where the British and French are the opponents.

If games are going faster for you in C&C:N than they do in Ancients, then that runs counter to my experience with the C&C:N. Games usually run longer. Perhaps a half-hour, on average. As a couple other posters have mentioned, patience is a key to success the game and that takes some time!
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Guillaume Gleize
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To Carl:

WOOOW I see your sense of humour! Just forget it!

To leave this post? For sure and closing the door very slowly not to disturb you anymore!

To leave this Forum? No way! I love that game and participate in many ways you donno either!

cool
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Carl Paradis
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GGleize wrote:
To Carl:

WOOOW I see your sense of humour! Just forget it!

To leave this post? For sure and closing the door very slowly not to disturb you anymore!

To leave this Forum? No way! I love that game and participate in many ways you donno either!

cool


Ahhh! Nooo!!! I am cursed!!!

Anyway... Vive L'Empereur!!! laugh
 
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Carl Paradis
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BradyLS wrote:
Carl, based on my own experience with C&C:N, I think your suggested tweak will make infantry overly powerful. If you make changes to the game, especially to the way infantry plays, you may find yourself revising your house rules with each new expansion.

One thing new players overlook is that with the base set, you are introduced to the two most deadly antagonists in the war: The British and the French. The British are brutes with the musket. And the French are no slouches, either. But that's the way it should be. Other nationalities don't fare nearly as well against the French. Try some games where the British fight with the qualities of the Portguese and tell us then if the game is still too deadly!

Still, with each new C&C title, I have to "unlearn" some things. Early on, while playing C&C:N, I realized that I was bringing tactics over from the Ancients game and trying to apply them in the Napoleonics game—and failing miserably. I remember thinking, "This game is too deadly!" But after getting a crack at more games with several different opponents and BGGer sduke, I realised that you need to at least try and develop a plan and a hand before committing to an attack, as Don suggests. Especially where the British and French are the opponents.

If games are going faster for you in C&C:N than they do in Ancients, then that runs counter to my experience with the C&C:N. Games usually run longer. Perhaps a half-hour, on average. As a couple other posters have mentioned, patience is a key to success the game and that takes some time!


Well, perhaps. We'll see. It does affect every arm, not only infantry.
And infantry at the time was "The Queen of the Battlefield", no?

I think it's worth a try. I do not like the game that much as it stands now (obviously), so I don't risk much, but to have even more fun!

And I still maintain my point: The game is too deadly and historical tactics do not work well. Not only too deadly: This could be OK, but the fact that when you take losses your units get weaker firepower put even more emphasis on this (the "first fire" problem), even with weaker powers.

I want to see historical firefights with lines blasting at each other for a bit of time, and with muskets, not machine-guns & lasers!

Don't worry, if it does not work, I'll be the first to cry back home and admit defeat.

BTW I have almost cancelled all my C&C:N P500 purchases a few weeks ago, but then decided to give the system another try with some house rules. If it does not work, then I'll give away the games that I own and forget the whole thing. No hard feelings.
 
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