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Meerkat wrote:
Sturmkraehe wrote:


I read the wargames forum all the time and I really have never found it overly sexist (or homophobic), but then again, I am male and not particularly sensative to the things that Jude is complaining about. For that I apologize, but not much I can do about it.



This is where you take the wrong turn. If you cannot do anything about your own lack of sensitivity and perception ... who can?


I think he means that it's difficult for him to identify the problem. Therefore, Jude was right to identify the problem, but she was wrong in how she chose to identify the problem. We can't become more sensitive just by having someone tell us we're a bunch of bigots.

As you said, it was a BIG PICTURE problem, but it wasn't fair to attack the entire subdomain from perceived slights she had picked up over time, from various websites. She sort of let it all out on us, and was much too quick to abandon ship.

Really, in the end, I also wish Jude had given us the benefit of the doubt. But, Lynette, I wasn't trying to be antagonistic with my post, I just wanted to make sure that after 9 pages of this thread, we didn't forget the roots of the discussion, or lose track of what happened.
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David N wrote:
I've joined the big league now, warned for trolling -- thanks everyone!

@ admins -- post not deleted but modified.


Really?



That's peachy... I do mean the fruit!
Unless some fruit farmer out there takes offence of that usage of the word... Or maybe a peach-tree... In which case I apologise... But it is intended to be humorous... and that's not to cover up some disguised intent at disrespecting any kind of fruit... I just meant the delightful mix of sweetness and acidity, the juicy pulp and soft texture... the shape and weight... Delicious like the irony in that warning... Wait! Wait! Forget that... Just the fruit. That's it... I swear!

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she2 wrote:
garygarison wrote:


For the record, David, were actually kind of mocking Butlerian and his difficulties following the discussion?


Okay, for the record, David needs to work on his delivery.

And no, I didn't flag his post.


I think I like david
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garygarison wrote:
David N wrote:
Butlerian wrote:
My eyes, all this text robot


Is this better?


Edited re complaint about trolling


For the record, David, were actually kind of mocking Butlerian and his difficulties following the discussion?


Well spotted, sir (although I did assume -- in good faith mode -- that it was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment).
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garygarison wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
Why slut and not "hound dog"? ... the closest male equivalent I know of.


Why not just "slut"? Gay men are known to use the term -- with endearment, no less. I've used "slut" to describe completely straight guys whose excessive bed hopping I found distasteful.


Gay men use "f*g" as a term of endearment. Blacks call each other "n*gger" all the time.

Hell I use "slut" as a term of endearment and have been called a "slut" lovingly more than once...

But those are context aberrations. Not standard usage.

And even then.... ok a tiny painful story... an exe lover, who praised me for my sexual nature and often called me slut as an endearment when we were dating, .... so AFTER we broke up totally unexpectedly... a few weeks later we were together and I made a pass at him.

I later found out he said in all seriousness to others... because I had made a now "unwanted pass" ... "I now know why there really are downsides to dating a SLUT"

God I can't even type that without starting to cry. For three years it was all... I love this about you, you are so free of inhibitions. It is so great to not have to always be the one initiating sex. Then just a few moments of "discomfort awkward" for him and oh my gosh my being sexually assertive is a horrible thing.

I have never felt so betrayed. I literally was unable to date men, or let anyone touch me for YEARS in large part because of that damage. Every-time I started to respond to some new guy in my head would be that line... "I now know why there really are downsides to dating a SLUT" -- aka later he will despise me for what he now thinks is so great.

So please let us not pretend that the word isn't MUCH MORE LOADED when used toward a woman. And it will be easier to remove it from daily talk than make that extra load disappear.
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David N wrote:
garygarison wrote:
David N wrote:
Butlerian wrote:
My eyes, all this text robot


Is this better?


Edited re complaint about trolling


For the record, David, were actually kind of mocking Butlerian and his difficulties following the discussion?


Well spotted, sir (although I did assume -- in good faith mode -- that it was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment).

Well there we go.

Sue? Lynette? Now how was it that I was able to penetrate the very opaque humor in David's post while you two took it at face value and saw only reprehensible rudeness?
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calandale wrote:
Pone4games wrote:
calandale wrote:
damiangerous wrote:
calandale wrote:
True. But I don't think policing can make someone feel more welcome.

It absolutely can, as I think Judy even mentioned. If someone feels unwelcome by the behavior of some people, and the rest of us just pay no attention to that and carry on as normal that person will continue to feel unwelcome.

If instead, the rest of the group would just say something simple like "hey, that's not cool" then that person can feel like the community values their presence.


That's societal pressure, which is entirely different.

The request I outlined seemed to be for administrative action
to be taken.

Though, I suppose if you drive away all the people you don't like,
you CAN feel more welcome.

That's what happened a bit earlier in the sub-domain, and now we
see the next step in the same process.

Censorship kills sites.

Only reason I'm involved in this discussion is to hand y'all
a big fat "told you so." The sub-domain has turned into a shadow
of what it is; the path taken is snowballing into more and more
overzealous calls for 'control' of what people are saying - on
BOTH sides of this issue (all those who hate the red 'x' seem to
have jumped ship). It's funny to watch actually.


Here's the thing I don't quite understand regarding your posting that wargamers have been leaving the site in significant numbers due to the issues you have described in previous posts. There was a well known wargamer who announced in a thread that he was leaving the site for good due to some racist/hate remarks made against a group of people (if I remember right from his country of Spain). A rally was made and many, many members of the wargaming subforums heeded the call of this injustice, donned the flag of Spain, and in a heart warming thread sympathized with the user and the lack of sensitivity on the part of the admins and fellow members who would allow such cruel and insensitive speech. This went on for some days and the user decided to stay and all was well again. Thank god he was a man and justice was served. If that Spanish member was a woman we would have the current thread we are reading now.


I was quite disgusted with the reaction to that, to be honest.

I didn't look too hard into the issue, but it appeared to be the
same kinda bs we're seeing here - and I expressed my opposition
to taking someone's demanding OTHERS speech be curtailed. I am,
unlike many people, rather consistent in my beliefs - not allowing
'friendship' or other BS to taint them.

Quote:

The other time a call for wargamers (users) to leave/boycott this site was when the wargame subdomain was divided into three separate subdomain forums. Accusations of marginalization and oppression were made and many, many members threatened to leave and abandon this site to it's lonely fate due to the cruel and unjust treatment of the admins. I have yet to see any of these members really leave yet as they still post here on the site. If these so called members were women I can only imagine how much less serious all of that discourse would have been considered, but since it was men feeling oppressed the discussion went on for many threads, many pages, and probably is still being discussed as I type this somewhere in the forums.


Yes. This. A number left. CSW social is a LOT more active.
Some wandered back, but the site's never recovered what it
once was. The number of posts has decreased significantly -
which was the predicted result. It's no longer the community it
was - that moved.

Quote:
So why can't women have problems with this site and be taken seriously, much like the men in the examples above, and not be marginalized or insulted in the unique way that always seem to occur due to their gender?



The first case was a (despicable in my opinion) call for censorship.
A lot of the people who left over the second, supported that,
but that's not really my concern. People is lemmings. My concern
is with understanding effects.

The second was the opposite - and attempt to relegate discussion which
is key to the wargaming hobby and/or the community, away from any
discussion of the games themselves. An attempt to heed the desires of
the red-xers, who didn't want to be bothered with what they didn't
want to see. Just as is the case on BOTH sides of this debate.

When all you gots left is those who 'won' by whining to authority,
just whaddya 'spect?


I appreciate you taking the time to answer my query and I think I understand your concerns. Thank you.

Glad to hear you were not one to catch the bandwagon regarding the first issue I mentioned. It would have tainted the alloy of your words with hypocrisy.

Though I think the core issue here may be less about censorship (though I acknowledge that it may be the result regardless), but about how male members here respond, react, and reference women. Be it by analogy or in person, there does seems to be a disconnect or maybe a failure of understanding among some members of this community.
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garygarison wrote:

Sue? Lynette? Now how was it that I was able to penetrate the very opaque humor in David's post while you two took it at face value and saw only reprehensible rudeness?


No I saw an attempt to be funny... that wasn't funny.

Turns out he wasn't trying to be funny.
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she2 wrote:
garygarison wrote:


For the record, David, were actually kind of mocking Butlerian and his difficulties following the discussion?


Okay, for the record, David needs to work on his delivery.

And no, I didn't flag his post.


I made almost no assumptions at all about who X-ed me -- and yes, I've been told before that my delivery can be pretty piss-poor (I'll stick to the day job and not go for stand-up comic, I guess). "almost no" meant being pretty sure it wasn't Lynette, with whom I've had (very brief) geekmail contact, and I'm also fairly sure that if she wanted to give me a good kicking she'd do it in public (which is good).
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Meerkat wrote:
Turns out he wasn't trying to be funny.

David, would you care to clarify for us?
 
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garygarison wrote:

Sue? Lynette? Now how was it that I was able to penetrate the very opaque humor in David's post while you two took at face value and saw only reprehensible rudeness?


Not speaking for Lynette, but I have the day off and have been following this thread all day. This thread is about a particular user's experiences as a woman in a particular forum and various other people's opinions on either side of the issue. To have Busen Memo thrown in the middle of the thread felt like a thwap upside the head. And yes, his humor was extremely opaque. There is a time and place for everything. I don't go ballistic when I see Busen Memo in the normal forum. It's become so commonplace. But it really was a bit tone deaf here.
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David N wrote:
she2 wrote:
garygarison wrote:


For the record, David, were actually kind of mocking Butlerian and his difficulties following the discussion?


Okay, for the record, David needs to work on his delivery.

And no, I didn't flag his post.


I made almost no assumptions at all about who X-ed me -- and yes, I've been told before that my delivery can be pretty piss-poor (I'll stick to the day job and not go for stand-up comic, I guess). "almost no" meant being pretty sure it wasn't Lynette, with whom I've had (very brief) geekmail contact, and I'm also fairly sure that if she wanted to give me a good kicking she'd do it in public (which is good).


Ow please do a stand up!
 
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The Grinch wrote:
You should back up and read the older posts. I don't care whether someone complains, except when they take words out of context and twist them into something they were never intended to be, and then try use this to criticise or intimidate others. Don't give me this crap that this kind of complaint doesn't have a chilling effect - we see it all the time in the media. Just look at the idiotic PC uproar over Mary J. Blige doing a fried chicken ad for Burger King. What effect do you think that will have on the ad industry?


Exactly what did this media furor chill? What exactly was it that could not be said because of this complaint? And a follow up question - was it something worth saying?

And are you really arguing that the ad industry is marginalised in US society because of one complaint? The ad industry, with all its money and access to airtime, is less powerful than a racial minority in a majority white nation?

Or are you saying that the ad industry needs to be allowed to say whatever it wants or the economy will collapse - that is, racism is fine as long as it pays the bills?

The Grinch wrote:
Now YOU are the one associating "shameful promiscuity" with women in general. You are the one making the sexist assumption, not me.:laugh:


That's demonstrably untrue, disingenuous and speaks to your own lack of understanding. Damiangerous is not being sexist, he is simply describing an existent, long held cultural contention that promiscuity is gendered - it's worse in the eyes of society to be a promiscuous woman than it is to be a promiscuous man. Besides, that argument has been made by at least one woman in this thread as well. At fault here is not damiangerous' politics, but your assumption that sexism is about the intent of words, not their reception. Furthermore, continuing to assume this means that you've either not read, or just ignored, most of the thread so far.

The Grinch wrote:
I can handle anything I damn well please. I haven't made any sexist comments; it wasn't even my joke. I have not argued to defend real sexism. All I've done is stand up for free speech, and I neither need your approval for doing so, nor care whether I have it. Nice how you tried to turn this into an argument about me as the villain, but it's not going to work. You're right on one count, it's a private forum, which means people are free to leave, which will be the consequence if we get so worried about offending someone that we're afraid to post, or if the admins listen to people like Jude cry wolf and expand the index of banned speech.


If you've made no sexist comments, what are you afraid of? How could this ban possibly affect you? You must be afraid of something else.

As far as I understand it, your argument runs like this:

There is a person using a definition of sexism that I don't understand. That person wants to apply that definition of sexism to words that I say. I am worried that they will use that definition to find sexism in the words that I say, when I don't see that they are sexist, and then make an accusation about me that I feel is undeserved.

If that's correct, you are afraid of something you don't understand. You know what? You could try to understand their definition of sexism, rather than trample their argument into the dust by telling them they're crying wolf.

And another thing - what does the "wolf" in this metaphor look like to you? Can you give me an example of "real" sexism?
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Again with all the text robot
 
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Butlerian wrote:
Again with all the text :robot:


This is the wrong place to be if you want images. What did Treebeard say? If something is worth saying, it's worth taking a long time to say. I'm paraphrasing, but it's something like that.
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PLACEHOLDER

I'll get back to all of you ASAP, just be aware it's past 01:00 here, no wonder my sleep pattern is all over the place (yeah, consuming wine for he last six hours doesn't help), give me a few minutes to find my typing finger etc. (Have we strayed somewhat from the thread topic or is that my fault?!)

Edit
I was going to try to respond to everything in one post, but I'm not sure that I can manage that at the moment, so I'll do them one by one -- apologies if that bores anyone.

 
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I'm kind of late to the thread...

So the OP figured the best way to combat ignorant, bigoted jerks on a subforum of the wargames forum on the internet was to lecture them in a semi-aggressive manner? And then things degenerated from there?

The internet is famous for stuff like Godwin's Law, and the general assumption that the longer a conversation goes the further it will degenerate into memes, flame wars, or inane garbage. Going in combative is just going to accelerate things.

I'm just gonna leave this right here:



It's not necessarily sexism, or homophobia, it's anonymous bullying. It's just really low-hanging fruit that requires barely a ripple on an EEG machine to say "hur hur you're a chick" or "hur hur you've caught teh ghey".

The little X box in the lower left hand corner of the post is your friend. And if you click the "down" arrow under someone's screenname, you can actually *block* them and you'll never have to read that tripe again. It's *really* stress-free. *plonk* and you're done. Going in confrontational, or just *taking part* in that kind of stupidity makes you partially culpable, because the people in question are specifically looking to get a rise out of other people. If you ignore them, they get bored and go away.

So yes, we can report to admins. Particularly nasty stuff probably should be. But it's easy to just hit "Hide Posts From User" and censure them via the community. Even if you're not personally offended, block the bigotry. There should be a microbadge for it.

Edit: I can already hear what some of you might say. "But if the person has something constructive to say then how will we know they're saying it if we block them?" Answer? You won't. Maybe someone will quote them enough times you'll see they might have changed, but really, if someone's that bigoted, how much will they have to say be really pertinent?
 
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Boots01 wrote:
Butlerian wrote:
Again with all the text robot


This is the wrong place to be if you want images. What did Treebeard say? If something is worth saying, it's worth taking a long time to say. I'm paraphrasing, but it's something like that.


Okay but if you can please make a summary for the simple minds.
 
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garygarison wrote:
David N wrote:
garygarison wrote:
David N wrote:
Butlerian wrote:
My eyes, all this text robot


Is this better?


Edited re complaint about trolling


For the record, David, were actually kind of mocking Butlerian and his difficulties following the discussion?


Well spotted, sir (although I did assume -- in good faith mode -- that it was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment).

Well there we go.

Sue? Lynette? Now how was it that I was able to penetrate the very opaque humor in David's post while you two took it at face value and saw only reprehensible rudeness?


I'm new to the BGG forums. I've used the site as an information resource for a long time, but am just dipping my toes into the community pool.

I can't speak for Sue, Lynette, or anyone else. But while I understood the intent of that post to be humor, that is pretty much exactly the kind of crap that supports an environment in which women feel relegated to a role of sexual objects and dehumanized. And then calling out how it was meant to be funny, and why can't you women have a sense of humor? Further targets women. What a perfect example, though not in the wargames sub-forum.

David, Gary, the rest of the guys who nodded along - I don't think you are bad people. (Well, I don't think that yet. You might be, but that usually takes some time to establish. I'd prefer to think you are all awesome game-playing people who I would enjoying inviting into my home, even if just via the internet.) But that was out of line if you want to be inclusive and respectful of the community members who are women.
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TheFlatline wrote:
I'm kind of late to the thread...

So the OP figured the best way to combat ignorant, bigoted jerks on a subforum of the wargames forum on the internet was to lecture them in a semi-aggressive manner? And then things degenerated from there?

The internet is famous for stuff like Godwin's Law, and the general assumption that the longer a conversation goes the further it will degenerate into memes, flame wars, or inane garbage. Going in combative is just going to accelerate things.

I'm just gonna leave this right here:



It's not necessarily sexism, or homophobia, it's anonymous bullying. It's just really low-hanging fruit that requires barely a ripple on an EEG machine to say "hur hur you're a chick" or "hur hur you've caught teh ghey".

The little X box in the lower left hand corner of the post is your friend. And if you click the "down" arrow under someone's screenname, you can actually *block* them and you'll never have to read that tripe again. It's *really* stress-free. *plonk* and you're done. Going in confrontational, or just *taking part* in that kind of stupidity makes you partially culpable, because the people in question are specifically looking to get a rise out of other people. If you ignore them, they get bored and go away.

So yes, we can report to admins. Particularly nasty stuff probably should be. But it's easy to just hit "Hide Posts From User" and censure them via the community. Even if you're not personally offended, block the bigotry. There should be a microbadge for it.

Edit: I can already hear what some of you might say. "But if the person has something constructive to say then how will we know they're saying it if we block them?" Answer? You won't. Maybe someone will quote them enough times you'll see they might have changed, but really, if someone's that bigoted, how much will they have to say be really pertinent?


Low hanging fruit.
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jessicac wrote:
garygarison wrote:
David N wrote:
garygarison wrote:
David N wrote:
Butlerian wrote:
My eyes, all this text robot


Is this better?


Edited re complaint about trolling


For the record, David, were actually kind of mocking Butlerian and his difficulties following the discussion?


Well spotted, sir (although I did assume -- in good faith mode -- that it was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment).

Well there we go.

Sue? Lynette? Now how was it that I was able to penetrate the very opaque humor in David's post while you two took it at face value and saw only reprehensible rudeness?


I'm new to the BGG forums. I've used the site as an information resource for a long time, but am just dipping my toes into the community pool.

I can't speak for Sue, Lynette, or anyone else. But while I understood the intent of that post to be humor, that is pretty much exactly the kind of crap that supports an environment in which women feel relegated to a role of sexual objects and dehumanized. And then calling out how it was meant to be funny, and why can't you women have a sense of humor? Further targets women. What a perfect example, though not in the wargames sub-forum.

David, Gary, the rest of the guys who nodded along - I don't think you are bad people. (Well, I don't think that yet. You might be, but that usually takes some time to establish. I'd prefer to think you are all awesome game-playing people who I would enjoying inviting into my home, even if just via the internet.) But that was out of line if you want to be inclusive and respectful of the community members who are women.


First of all, welcome to BGG.
Second, that are some harsh words for someone who just joined.
also again: Humour is essential to these dark en deep discussions. Sometimes you need a fun moment just to lighten things up.
 
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jessicac wrote:
And then calling out how it was meant to be funny, and why can't you women have a sense of humor? Further targets women. What a perfect example, though not in the wargames sub-forum.

Lynette and Sue and I just recently came off another thread about nature of humor and the capacity to recognize it. So I'm not targeting women. I'm targeting Sue and Lynette.
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Meerkat wrote:
garygarison wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
Why slut and not "hound dog"? ... the closest male equivalent I know of.


Why not just "slut"? Gay men are known to use the term -- with endearment, no less. I've used "slut" to describe completely straight guys whose excessive bed hopping I found distasteful.


Gay men use "f*g" as a term of endearment. Blacks call each other "n*gger" all the time.

Hell I use "slut" as a term of endearment and have been called a "slut" lovingly more than once...

But those are context aberrations. Not standard usage.

And even then.... ok a tiny painful story... an exe lover, who praised me for my sexual nature and often called me slut as an endearment, AFTER we broke up totally unexpectedly... a few weeks later we were together and I made a pass at him.

I later found out he said in all seriousness to others... because I had made a now "unwanted pass" ... "I now know why there really are downsides to dating a SLUT"

God I can't even type that without starting to cry. For three years it was all... I love this about you, you are so free of inhibitions. It is so great to not have to always be the one initiating sex. Then just a few moments of "discomfort awkward" for him and oh my gosh my being sexually assertive is a horrible thing.

I have never felt so betrayed. I literally was unable to date men, or let anyone touch me for YEARS in large part because of that damage. Every-time I started to respond to some new guy in my head would be that line... "I now know why there really are downsides to dating a SLUT" -- aka later he will despise me for what he now thinks is so great.

So please let us not pretend that the word isn't MUCH MORE LOADED when used toward a woman. And it will be easier to remove it from daily talk than make that extra load disappear.


I appreciate you sharing such a personal story. After reading, one can really understand why the term "slut" would be personally offensive to you. This is the type of thing I mentioned earlier when I said I thought there was a better way for someone to go about expressing their displeasure of certain comments without simply firing insults themselves and getting angry.
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garygarison wrote:

Sue? Lynette? Now how was it that I was able to penetrate the very opaque humor in David's post while you two took it at face value and saw only reprehensible rudeness?


To be fair to Lynette and I, it wasn't just us women who thought it was just a joke making light of the thread (I actually thought it was him trying to lighten the thread--rather unsuccessfully to put it mildly, but anyway...). The guy he directed it to thought he had balls for posting it. You really do have to know your audience and make your point accordingly. As I think I've said before, context is everything.

Edited for: Deleted my TMI moment as it really not relevant to this particular discussion. Plus, blah, it makes me sad to even think about that part of my life.
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she2 wrote:
[...] As I think I've said before, context is everything.

Yes.
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