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Carcassonne: Abbey & Mayor» Forums » Rules

Subject: Simultaneous scoring of farms when connected to barn. rss

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Thomas Englund
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Hi,

My girlfriend and I recently happened upon a 'situation' when playing Carcassonne. The piece that was played connected 3 different farms and was played by 'red'

- Farm1: blue farm with 2 followers
- Farm2: red farm with 1 follower
- Farm3: farm with red barn already in place

The question arose how we should score the farms. Should the complete farm-area farm1+farm2+farm3 be scored and blue receive 1 point for every completed city?

/thomas
 
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brian
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horned1 wrote:
Hi,

My girlfriend and I recently happened upon a 'situation' when playing Carcassonne. The piece that was played connected 3 different farms and was played by 'red'

- Farm1: blue farm with 2 followers
- Farm2: red farm with 1 follower
- Farm3: farm with red barn already in place

The question arose how we should score the farms. Should the complete farm-area farm1+farm2+farm3 be scored and blue receive 1 point for every completed city?

/thomas

As soon as the tile is placed, they become one farm. Since one of the segments had a barn, the new farm is now scored. The new farm has 2 blue followers and 1 red follower. Therefore Blue will score whatever points are available (1 pt. per completed city). Then all followers are removed leaving just the red barn in the new field.
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James W
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
horned1 wrote:
Hi,

My girlfriend and I recently happened upon a 'situation' when playing Carcassonne. The piece that was played connected 3 different farms and was played by 'red'

- Farm1: blue farm with 2 followers
- Farm2: red farm with 1 follower
- Farm3: farm with red barn already in place

The question arose how we should score the farms. Should the complete farm-area farm1+farm2+farm3 be scored and blue receive 1 point for every completed city?

/thomas

As soon as the tile is placed, they become one farm. Since one of the segments had a barn, the new farm is now scored. The new farm has 2 blue followers and 1 red follower. Therefore Blue will score whatever points are available (1 pt. per completed city). Then all followers are removed leaving just the red barn in the new field.


Brian, here's a quick question that somewhat related. It's not a pressing issue and I haven't done a search for the answer yet, but you might know off the top of your head.

This came up a few days ago and we did a quick ruling to keep the game moving.

If in the situation above, there was also a completed Castle, would that Castle score 2 points for the player with the most Farmers?
 
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brian
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kingjames01 wrote:
Brian, here's a quick question that somewhat related. It's not a pressing issue and I haven't done a search for the answer yet, but you might know off the top of your head.

This came up a few days ago and we did a quick ruling to keep the game moving.

If in the situation above, there was also a completed Castle, would that Castle score 2 points for the player with the most Farmers?

Castles do not score off of fields (since they are never counted as "completed" until the end of the game). All it is looking for is a cloister, city, road, or another castle to trigger it, not the farm.
 
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James W
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
Brian, here's a quick question that somewhat related. It's not a pressing issue and I haven't done a search for the answer yet, but you might know off the top of your head.

This came up a few days ago and we did a quick ruling to keep the game moving.

If in the situation above, there was also a completed Castle, would that Castle score 2 points for the player with the most Farmers?

Castles do not score off of fields (since they are never counted as "completed" until the end of the game). All it is looking for is a cloister, city, road, or another castle to trigger it, not the farm.


I think you might have misunderstood what I was asking. I was not asking when a Castle is considered to be Completed.

So I decided to grab the rulebook since I was pretty sure that what you've posted is incorrect.

First, an Uncompleted Castle is considered to be Completed as soon as an Uncompleted Cloister, Road or Castle located within the vicinity of the Castle in question is Completed. You do not wait until the end of the game.

Second, if a Castle remains in an Uncompleted state at the end of the game, it scores no points for anyone in any way.

Third, I was asking if a Farm was connected to a pre-existing Barn, would Completed Castles give 2, 1 or 0 points. The simple answer (and the one that I ruled to be most logical during the game mentioned above) is it would give 2 points.
 
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brian
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kingjames01 wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
Brian, here's a quick question that somewhat related. It's not a pressing issue and I haven't done a search for the answer yet, but you might know off the top of your head.

This came up a few days ago and we did a quick ruling to keep the game moving.

If in the situation above, there was also a completed Castle, would that Castle score 2 points for the player with the most Farmers?

Castles do not score off of fields (since they are never counted as "completed" until the end of the game). All it is looking for is a cloister, city, road, or another castle to trigger it, not the farm.


I think you might have misunderstood what I was asking. I was not asking when a Castle is considered to be Completed.

So I decided to grab the rulebook since I was pretty sure that what you've posted is incorrect.

First, an Uncompleted Castle is considered to be Completed as soon as an Uncompleted Cloister, Road or Castle located within the vicinity of the Castle in question is Completed. You do not wait until the end of the game.

Second, if a Castle remains in an Uncompleted state at the end of the game, it scores no points for anyone in any way.

Third, I was asking if a Farm was connected to a pre-existing Barn, would Completed Castles give 2, 1 or 0 points. The simple answer (and the one that I ruled to be most logical during the game mentioned above) is it would give 2 points.

We are probably talking about different things. First off, I never said Castles score at the end of the game. What I said was castles don't score off of farms. Ever. My point about "end of the game" was that farms aren't tallied for farms until the end so they never have a completed state.

Now, if your question is about Castles scoring off of Farms (which is how it sounds by the way it is phrased), my answer stands - Castles don't score off of fields.

If you are asking if the Castle contributes points to the farm, then yest it does. However it Counts 4 points instead of 3 (with an extra point for pigs if involved).

If you are asking if a Barn can force points to be scored during the game, there is no rule covering this. So my assumption is they do not count during mid-game scoring. The only mentioned is for game end scoring.

So I do not agree that you score 2 points for the Castles when scoring farmers mid-game. You score nothing.
 
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James W
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
Brian, here's a quick question that somewhat related. It's not a pressing issue and I haven't done a search for the answer yet, but you might know off the top of your head.

This came up a few days ago and we did a quick ruling to keep the game moving.

If in the situation above, there was also a completed Castle, would that Castle score 2 points for the player with the most Farmers?

Castles do not score off of fields (since they are never counted as "completed" until the end of the game). All it is looking for is a cloister, city, road, or another castle to trigger it, not the farm.


I think you might have misunderstood what I was asking. I was not asking when a Castle is considered to be Completed.

So I decided to grab the rulebook since I was pretty sure that what you've posted is incorrect.

First, an Uncompleted Castle is considered to be Completed as soon as an Uncompleted Cloister, Road or Castle located within the vicinity of the Castle in question is Completed. You do not wait until the end of the game.

Second, if a Castle remains in an Uncompleted state at the end of the game, it scores no points for anyone in any way.

Third, I was asking if a Farm was connected to a pre-existing Barn, would Completed Castles give 2, 1 or 0 points. The simple answer (and the one that I ruled to be most logical during the game mentioned above) is it would give 2 points.

We are probably talking about different things. First off, I never said Castles score at the end of the game. What I said was castles don't score off of farms. Ever. My point about "end of the game" was that farms aren't tallied for farms until the end so they never have a completed state.

Now, if your question is about Castles scoring off of Farms (which is how it sounds by the way it is phrased), my answer stands - Castles don't score off of fields.

If you are asking if the Castle contributes points to the farm, then yest it does. However it Counts 4 points instead of 3 (with an extra point for pigs if involved).

If you are asking if a Barn can force points to be scored during the game, there is no rule covering this. So my assumption is they do not count during mid-game scoring. The only mentioned is for game end scoring.

So I do not agree that you score 2 points for the Castles when scoring farmers mid-game. You score nothing.


Ah okay, we ARE talking about different things. I thought as much based upon your response.

To help re-focus the question:

ColtsFan76 wrote:
horned1 wrote:
Hi,

My girlfriend and I recently happened upon a 'situation' when playing Carcassonne. The piece that was played connected 3 different farms and was played by 'red'

- Farm1: blue farm with 2 followers
- Farm2: red farm with 1 follower
- Farm3: farm with red barn already in place

The question arose how we should score the farms. Should the complete farm-area farm1+farm2+farm3 be scored and blue receive 1 point for every completed city?

/thomas

As soon as the tile is placed, they become one farm. Since one of the segments had a barn, the new farm is now scored. The new farm has 2 blue followers and 1 red follower. Therefore Blue will score whatever points are available (1 pt. per completed city). Then all followers are removed leaving just the red barn in the new field.


You stated "score whatever points are available (1 pt. per completed city)."

In response, I asked:

kingjames01 wrote:

If in the situation above, there was also a completed Castle, would that Castle score 2 points for the player with the most Farmers?


The situation above:
- a Farm has been connected to a pre-existing Barn
- the player with the most Farmers is Blue

The question asked in a more precise way:
Do Completed Castles count for "whatever points are available (1 pt. per completed city)" and if so, do they score 2 points?

It is the most logical way to score this situation. This is in light of the following:
- When a Barn is placed for the first time, Completed Castles score 1 more point than Completed Cities.
- At the end of the game, Completed Castles score 1 more point than Completed Cities.

With this information in mind, I ruled in the most obvious way. If a Farm is connected to a Barn such that a Farmer must be returned, then Completed Castles should score 1 more point than Completed Cities, namely 2 points.

I looked it up in the rulebook and the answer is, yes, in this situation they DO score 2 points. By the way, I'm looking at the rulebook provided in the Big Box 3 set.

On the last page, there is a Scoring Overview and they are very clear about this situation.
 
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brian
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kingjames01 wrote:
I looked it up in the rulebook and the answer is, yes, in this situation they DO score 2 points. By the way, I'm looking at the rulebook provided in the Big Box 3 set.

On the last page, there is a Scoring Overview and they are very clear about this situation.

To get on the same page, I downloaded the Big Box 3 rules. I do NOT see it mentioned in the rules anywhere except the scoring summary before the tile count.

Can you point me to page references where it shows what you are saying?

What I am getting at is the scoring summary does not appear to be supported by its own set of rules, even for other things. I am wondering if this is another RGG scoring mistake.
 
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James W
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
kingjames01 wrote:
I looked it up in the rulebook and the answer is, yes, in this situation they DO score 2 points. By the way, I'm looking at the rulebook provided in the Big Box 3 set.

On the last page, there is a Scoring Overview and they are very clear about this situation.

To get on the same page, I downloaded the Big Box 3 rules. I do NOT see it mentioned in the rules anywhere except the scoring summary before the tile count.

Can you point me to page references where it shows what you are saying?

What I am getting at is the scoring summary does not appear to be supported by its own set of rules, even for other things. I am wondering if this is another RGG scoring mistake.


I believe we're on the same page since you're looking at the Scoring Overview.

Also, you're suggesting that the Scoring Overview is inconsistent with the rulebook. I don't see what you mean. Can you elaborate?
 
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brian
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kingjames01 wrote:
Also, you're suggesting that the Scoring Overview is inconsistent with the rulebook. I don't see what you mean. Can you elaborate?

You mention the scoring overview. I see that. But you also said the rules support this. I do not see anywhere in the rules itself where castles score for Farmers mid-game. The section under Castles still say they only contribute at game end. And the section on barns are silent about any interactions with the Castles.

So what is shown on the scoring summary is not listed in the actual rules. But I may have overlooked them. So if you have something specific besides the overview, please direct me to it.
 
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James W
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Well, my original question has been addressed since I consider the Scoring Overview to be a part of the rulebook. I was just asking if you knew the answer off-hand.

The way that the Scoring Overview indicates and the way that seems most logical is that for scoring purposes, Completed Castles should be treated like Completed Cities with an extra point awarded.

From what I can tell, the Scoring Overview is consistent with the every other statement in the rulebook.

It is difficult to ensure that the text explicitly describes how each and every mechanic interacts with each and every other rule. As the number of expansions grow, the combinations to consider increases immensely.

In this case, I simply believe that it was an oversight in the text.

Also, this question:

kingjames01 wrote:
Also, you're suggesting that the Scoring Overview is inconsistent with the rulebook. I don't see what you mean. Can you elaborate?


is directed at the following statement.

ColtsFan76 wrote:

What I am getting at is the scoring summary does not appear to be supported by its own set of rules, even for other things. I am wondering if this is another RGG scoring mistake.


Given that this situation is not explicitly described in the text, I still don't see what "other things" you mean.
 
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brian
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It is understandable Abbey & Mayor wouldn't address it as Castles weren't out yet. But Castles Bridges and Bazaars should have addressed it since Barns were out already. And they do go so far as addressing them in the end game scoring. So they were referencing Barns when writing the Castle rules they just may have been incomplete or not.

What I have an issue with is Big Box apparently picked it up but didn't go back and update any of the rules in this regard. And what I am concerned about is the reference on the summary is an invention of Jay and not an official HiG rule. He has done this many times before.

The reason why I do not see it as so clear cut as just add 2 points is that Castles aren't complete until they are scored. But they look complete because they are a single tile. Given the lack of the mention of them scoring for fields mid-game, it may be an intentional design feature to not score them until the end of the game. So my point is that the summary may have been well intentioned but not official. What I would like to see is some official errata to the CBB rules to indicate that Castles do indeed score during the game. I don't own Big Box 3 (or any Big Box so I am not "aware" of any rule changes they introduce).

As to "other errors" I was just going through it quickly and it seemed some of the other farm scoring was off. I still need to look at those in more detail.
 
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