Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

7 Wonders» Forums » Rules

Subject: Olympia vs. Courtesans' guild rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Homo Ludens
Hungary
flag msg tools
Dear gamers!

I have a question that I couldn't decide by reading the rulebook, please help me!
So if you use Olympia "B" side (with the ability of copying a neighbouring purple card) and you copy a "courtesans' guild" card, can you decide on which leader would you like it to refer to, or you have to stick to the choice of the original owner of the courtesans' guild card? And if it is so, and the card refers back to your own leader does it count twice?

Thank You
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Günter Immeyer
Germany
Essen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I believe this question has already been answered (or rather discussed to some extent... ) over in the "Leaders" expansion rules forum.

Here's what I believe is the correct way to play it:

- Olympia B allows you to copy a guild card of one of your neighbors, but in such a way as if you had played the guild card yourself

- If you choose to copy the "Courtesan's Guild", this means you get to play the effect of the "Courtesan's Guild" from your perspective, that is: you get to choose a new leader card to copy from one of your two neighbors

So: No, you don't copy it including the leader originally chosen by the player who played the Courtesan's Guild. You get to make a new choice yourself. Doubling the effect of one of your own leaders is therefore impossible.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Homo Ludens
Hungary
flag msg tools
Thank you very much for the answer and sorry if it has already been discussed!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Smiles
United States
Dedham
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
admin
The ratio of people to cake is too big.
badge
Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler...
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes it was discussed but not definitively answered in the leader's forum. I'd love to see an official ruling from the designers.

Personally, I'd rule it the other way. Courtesan's guild has 2 distinct parts. 1. When the guild is built, place the courtesan marker a neighboring leader. 2. Copy the effect of the leader with the courtesan token on it.

Since during end game scoring, you didn't build the guild, merely copy it's effect, you copy the effect of the leader with the courtesan token on it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Günter Immeyer
Germany
Essen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Adam!

Quote:
...it was discussed but not definitively answered in the leader's forum. I'd love to see an official ruling from the designers.

Yes, I've also read and followed that interesting discussion (or does a thread like that already classify as being a dispute? laugh) with "TheUnknownParkerBrother"...

But I'm sorry to say that I really go 100% with Steve on this one: I really don't see any difference in copying the "Courtesans's Guild" and copying the effect of any other guild.

For example: if you copied the "Philosopher's Guild" (the one giving you points for all the green cards from your left and right neighbors) with Olympia B, you wouldn't inherit the score of the person having originally played that purple card either; you'd always apply the effect anew from your perspective, thus getting points for the green cards of your left and right neighbors.

So: same procedure with "Courtesan's Guild" (and EVERY other guild), don't you think?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Homo Ludens
Hungary
flag msg tools
I think both solutions are reasonable, but in my opinion the courtesan token belongs to the card itself and if the token is placed it marks out the effect that you can copy with your wonder. Otherwise there should be two tokens in the game, shouldn't be?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Smiles
United States
Dedham
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
admin
The ratio of people to cake is too big.
badge
Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler...
mbmbmbmbmb
Miraculix wrote:
So: same procedure with "Courtesan's Guild" (and EVERY other guild), don't you think?


Every other guild has an end-game evaluation. It doesn't matter what the game state is when the guild is played. At game end, you evaluate whatever points it's worth. The Courtesan's Guild has a temporal component. At the time it is brought into play, you must decide which leader you are copying. So I don't really buy the "all guilds follow the same procedure" argument.

Both arguments are reasonable, and I could see the designer choosing either one. But until there's an official ruling, we'll have to agree to disagree.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ultimately, it simply comes down to this, do you think that:

a) all 200 cards in the game work the same way

or

b) 199 cards all work the same way, except one card is different in that it copies results instead of actions, and works with neighbours 2 spots away instead of your direct left and right neighbours like everything else.

I think the answer is obvious.
2 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Smiles
United States
Dedham
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
admin
The ratio of people to cake is too big.
badge
Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler...
mbmbmbmbmb
C) 1 card has a token that indicates how it is used and 199 don't.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Michaels
United States
Brooklyn
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It is not obvious to me! It happened our last game, and we ruled that the token was fixed, and if you copy the CG, you'd get the leader with the token currently on it.

But in retrospect, shouldn't we have just behaved like there was a second CG card in the game? Therefore a second token (though, any cards that score purple cards for you, don't count a copied guild, right?)

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Fouts
United States
Brookfield
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
al_fredo wrote:
It is not obvious to me! It happened our last game, and we ruled that the token was fixed, and if you copy the CG, you'd get the leader with the token currently on it.





Our playgroup follows this ruling. Here is our logic.
Stage III of Olympia (B) from the Quick Rules Sheet states "The player can, at the end of the game, "copy" a Guild of his or her choice (purple card), built by one of his or her neighboring Cites.
From the Leaders rule book, the Courtesan's Guild states "When the Courtesan's Guild is built, the player must immediately place the "Courtesan" Token on one of the Leaders present in one neighboring city. The player then gains the benefits of that Leader and his or her associated effect.
The reason we don't place a 2nd token when we copy the Courtesan's Guild is because placement of the token, per our interpretation of the Leaders rule book, is dependent upon building the guild. We've agreed that copying a guild doesn't satisfy the criteria for placing a token, because we built a wonder, not a guild.

I'll admit that the logic listed in option b in the post by UnknownParkerBrother does sense, but that logic will be invalidated with 7 Wonders: Cities & the new Diplomacy token...we will every now and then be interacting with players 2 seats away!


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.