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Subject: I think the Line of Sight example is bad rss

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Jon Duke
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I've been somewhat unhappy with the LoS example in the preview earlier but the same on is in the rules just posted.

Also I think the rules clearly state that Jain can shoot the Zombie from her left bottom corner to the Zombie's right bottom corner.

Excerpt from the rules, emphasis mine:
Quote:
LINE OF SIGHT
In order for a figure to have line of sight to a space, a player must be able to trace an uninterrupted, straight line from any corner of that figure’s space to any corner of the target space.

If the line passes through the edge of a map tile, a door, or a blocked space (a space containing a figure or obstacle), the target space is not in line of sight (see “Line of Sight Example” on page 12).

If the line passes along the edge of a blocked space (see “Line of Sight Example” on page 12), the target space is not in line of sight. However, if the line only touches the corner of a blocked space (without passing through the space itself ), the target space is in line of sight.

Since adjacent spaces always share at least one common edge or corner, there is no need to trace line of sight between adjacent spaces. A space adjacent to a figure is in line of sight.


Am I wrong?
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Tim Silver
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If figures block line of sight in their own space, then No, Jaina cannot shoot from her lower left corner to the Zombie's lower right corner as she is tracing a line through the Zombie itself.

Edit: I think the example proves this as the line of sight lines all orginate and end on the "front" of the space, i.e. not from behind the figure.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Frankenduke wrote:
I've been somewhat unhappy with the LoS example in the preview earlier but the same on is in the rules just posted.

Also I think the rules clearly state that Jain can shoot the Zombie from her left bottom corner to the Zombie's right bottom corner.

Excerpt from the rules, emphasis mine:
Quote:
LINE OF SIGHT
In order for a figure to have line of sight to a space, a player must be able to trace an uninterrupted, straight line from any corner of that figure’s space to any corner of the target space.

If the line passes through the edge of a map tile, a door, or a blocked space (a space containing a figure or obstacle), the target space is not in line of sight (see “Line of Sight Example” on page 12).

If the line passes along the edge of a blocked space (see “Line of Sight Example” on page 12), the target space is not in line of sight. However, if the line only touches the corner of a blocked space (without passing through the space itself ), the target space is in line of sight.

Since adjacent spaces always share at least one common edge or corner, there is no need to trace line of sight between adjacent spaces. A space adjacent to a figure is in line of sight.


Am I wrong?

I put some text in red above. Mechanically, to measure to the bottom right, the LoS would be drawn through the space containing a figure.

Conceptually, I know it does seem strange, though, but in a way, since the top two corners are blocked, I don't mind that you can't draw "through" the figure, either.
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Bobb Beauchamp
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Doesn't the line from Jain's bottom left to the zombie's bottom right also cross two sides of the blocked space? It doesn't appear to go through the corners as in Leoric's LOS line.
 
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Kevin Walsh
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kingbobb wrote:
Doesn't the line from Jain's bottom left to the zombie's bottom right also cross two sides of the blocked space? It doesn't appear to go through the corners as in Leoric's LOS line.

No, it goes through the corners all right. You don't need a ruler to see that - the squares are symmetrical.
 
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Jon Duke
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Then it looks like the question that needs to be asked is:

Can the target of an attack block LoS of that attack?

This matters also for the case of trying to target the back of a large monster for Blast effects.

I don't think the target figure should block to it's own square, but the attack is declared against a space not a figure.

However the way the rules are written I could see it going either way, but leaning towards Version 1 because a blocked square is one with a figure in it.


Version 1:
If a figure can block LoS to a space it occupies then the example is right and I'm wrongyuk, but thematically it's weird. Jain can't hit the zombie because the zombie is in the way.

Version A:
If a figure cannot block LoS to a space it occupies then the example is wrong devil and I award myself 1,000,000 internet points as soon as I get the extra tape on my glasses. Of course that means that the blast effects can be centered on the back side of a Giant. Which I think I'm more ok with.

One other point, since there haven't been any large heroes, Version 1
favors them.
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Peter Cruickshanks
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Frankenduke wrote:
Then it looks like the question that needs to be asked is:

Can the target of an attack block LoS of that attack?

Yes. Stop thinking as if this is real life or some kind of problem you're out to solve. It's a rule. Follow it to the letter and it works fine.

Forget who is attacking and who is the target, and anything else you think you know. Just draw the line.
The line goes from any corner of the hero space to any corner of the monster space.

The rule is: "If the line crosses a figure, it's blocked."

Unless the FFG people are illiterate it's really that simple, and if you read it like that, the rule is solid.
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Frankenduke wrote:
Am I wrong?


Well, D&D does it, so... whatever...

"Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other. To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between your space and the target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you). The line is clear if it doesn't intersect or even touch squares that block line of sight. If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's."

Me, I want hexes.
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Sam and Max wrote:
Frankenduke wrote:
Am I wrong?


Well, D&D does it, so... whatever...

"Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other. To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between your space and the target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you). The line is clear if it doesn't intersect or even touch squares that block line of sight. If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's."

Me, I want hexes.


So... according to D&D she does have line of sight (says nothing about drawing lines to corners) yet she also does not have line of sight (the line touches the corners of LOS blocking hexes in the example)...
 
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Bobb Beauchamp
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Am I the only one without laser eyes? Of course you need a ruler to see that! At least the first time.

Although after looking at LOS lines on a grid, I do see that the corner rule is pretty bad. At least so far as it's executed. It could be fixed by allowing LOS from any area of the attackers facing side(s) to any area of the target's facing side(s).

Amaranth wrote:
kingbobb wrote:
Doesn't the line from Jain's bottom left to the zombie's bottom right also cross two sides of the blocked space? It doesn't appear to go through the corners as in Leoric's LOS line.

No, it goes through the corners all right. You don't need a ruler to see that - the squares are symmetrical.
 
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Andy Mills
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If a line goes over two spaces and down four, then it'll pass through the corner that is one over and two down. That's not laser eyes, that's just math.
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Benjamin Pachner
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kingbobb wrote:
Am I the only one without laser eyes? :) Of course you need a ruler to see that! At least the first time.


It's really just a bit of basic symmetry you need to see these things. You'll notice that afer two or three games where you need to determine line of sight. No one wants to handle a ruler in the middle of all those miniatures :)
 
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Kelly Overholser
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kingbobb wrote:
Am I the only one without laser eyes? :) Of course you need a ruler to see that! At least the first time.

Although after looking at LOS lines on a grid, I do see that the corner rule is pretty bad. At least so far as it's executed. It could be fixed by allowing LOS from any area of the attackers facing side(s) to any area of the target's facing side(s).

Amaranth wrote:
kingbobb wrote:
Doesn't the line from Jain's bottom left to the zombie's bottom right also cross two sides of the blocked space? It doesn't appear to go through the corners as in Leoric's LOS line.

No, it goes through the corners all right. You don't need a ruler to see that - the squares are symmetrical.


Yeah, I'd say that it should be any point in the origin square to any point in the target square, ignoring any figures in the target square.

This means that:

-The zombie example means Jain does have LoS, since she can still trace a line through the corners of the blocking obstacle to somewhere in the zombie's square.
-A large figure does block LoS to its far spaces, so blast effects can't target there. A blast effect could still target one of the nearer squares just fine, however.
 
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Jon Duke
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While I don't think this is a discussion of major world importance it still bothers me. Maybe it my programming brain's compiler rejecting the glitch in the theme.

I disagree with the sentiment of araziel comment because Descent is a very thematic game and while reality has little place along side dragons and magic I think we can all visualize the intersection of arrow and zombie.

Also I will stake the claim that any tactical game is exactly a puzzle to be figured out. It is a dynamic and fluid puzzle but a puzzle none the less.

Furthermore I will argue that since the any corner to any corner rule is listed first it takes precedence over the definition of blocked squares. That is petty rules layering of first degree however.

araziel is correct that interpreted as blocked the rules work and the game is consistent and not broken. Jain cannot shoot the zombie and the zombie cannot shoot Jain(assuming it could attack at range). In both cases here the zombie figure would block the LoS line.

I think that Sethala has voiced the correct interpretation and the one we'll most likely be using in our games. Jain can shoot at the zombie and the zombie can shoot at Jain(assuming it could attack at range). In both cases here the zombie figure would not block the LoS line. And you can't hit the backside of a dragon that is looking at you. ..like a tasty snack.

Until we get to play it however we won't know if it something that will come up often and if it pushes the balance to either side.

Barring input from our friendly Overlords at FFG(Adam Sadler,Corey Konieczka or Daniel Lovat Clark)
I say let the Munchkin rule prevail.
 
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Scott Lewis
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I would disagree that the strict interpretation is "rules lawyering to the first degree" since the example in the book seems to imply (and support) that interpretation.

While it could have stated the figures themselves do block LOS, the implication the example provides does do that in a way. IE - if the options are "the example is wrong and there's an unwritten exception" and "the example is right and the rule is exactly as written", barring an errata to the contrary, the latter seems to be the more likely correct interpretation, not just a far-fetched stretch.
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Anson Bischoff
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The big problem that I see is that if the zombie moves one space forward it can be seen, and if it moves one space backward, it can be seen. Yet it is always seen through the same crack. In what weird dimension does that make sense? I can see you perfectly in either of these two places, yet between them where in theory I should be able to see you best (as I am looking still looking through the same crack), I cannot.
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Josiah Leis
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I spent 100 GG and all I got was this stupid overtext.....
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biscuits409 wrote:
The big problem that I see is that if the zombie moves one space forward it can be seen, and if it moves one space backward, it can be seen. Yet it is always seen through the same crack. In what weird dimension does that make sense? I can see you perfectly in either of these two places, yet between them where in theory I should be able to see you best (as I am looking still looking through the same crack), I cannot.


Wow, did not even realize that. Yeesh, but that is dumb.
 
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Jeremy Lennert
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caadamec wrote:
Sam and Max wrote:
Well, D&D does it, so... whatever...

"Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other. To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between your space and the target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you). The line is clear if it doesn't intersect or even touch squares that block line of sight. If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's."

Me, I want hexes.


So... according to D&D she does have line of sight (says nothing about drawing lines to corners) yet she also does not have line of sight (the line touches the corners of LOS blocking hexes in the example)...

Based on the quote above, it looks like she would not have line of sight in D&D, but for a different reason: the quoted rule doesn't allow tracing through the corner of the blocked square. Which means Leoric wouldn't have LOS, either.

Based on my own memory of D&D 4e's rules, the book contradicts itself in several places. I believe one section says you can trace LOS from any point in your square and another says you have to trace from a corner, and one section says the line can touch the corner of a blocking square and another says it can't. But it's been a while, so I might be remembering incorrectly. (And they've probably issued about a million errata since then, anyway.)
 
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Paul Leigh
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I don't see what the issue is here. The LoS rules are what they are and once you get used to them, it looks like they will be easy to interpret and quick to play. It may throw up the odd anomaly (though I can't see one yet), but I think the example in the rules is fine.

I'm prepared to accept the rule as it is and play that!

Edit - I just read a post that does throw up an oddity - I'll look at it a bit further...
 
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Matt Shinners
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biscuits409 wrote:
The big problem that I see is that if the zombie moves one space forward it can be seen, and if it moves one space backward, it can be seen. Yet it is always seen through the same crack. In what weird dimension does that make sense? I can see you perfectly in either of these two places, yet between them where in theory I should be able to see you best (as I am looking still looking through the same crack), I cannot.


If it moves back one, I don't believe she has line of sight. You'd have to trace a line from her back, left corner to the zombie, and that would trace through Jaina, which would block line of sight. Makes sense to me to always draw line of sight from one of the corners that's facing the target.

If I'm interpreting correctly, then it makes sense that the zombie moving one space closer to Jaina allows her to see it.
 
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Sylvain BONNEAU
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MattShinners wrote:
If it moves back one, I don't believe she has line of sight. You'd have to trace a line from her back, left corner to the zombie, and that would trace through Jaina, which would block line of sight.


Either your eyes fail you or you misinterpreted the "one space backward" movement biscuits409 was talking about. By "backward", he meant "one space toward the bottom of the image".


___J__
______
__L_@_
___@__
____Z_
______

v
v (zombie moves backward)
v

___J__
______
__L_@_
___@__
______
____Z_


And now you can trace from J's lower-left corner to Z's upper-right corner.

--
Buggy
 
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Matt Shinners
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Bvggy wrote:


Either your eyes fail you or you misinterpreted the "one space backward" movement biscuits409 was talking about.


Yep, re-looking, one of those two things must have happened.
 
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trouvere wrote:

Edit - I just read a post that does throw up an oddity - I'll look at it a bit further...

Which oddity?
 
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Paul Leigh
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The awkward ruling highlighted by biscuits409 above.

 
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biscuits409 wrote:
The big problem that I see is that if the zombie moves one space forward it can be seen, and if it moves one space backward, it can be seen. Yet it is always seen through the same crack. In what weird dimension does that make sense? I can see you perfectly in either of these two places, yet between them where in theory I should be able to see you best (as I am looking still looking through the same crack), I cannot.

I loved this reasoning so much, I had to add a picture of this situation.


Descent 2nd Edition Line of Sight(LOS) rules, from page 12 in the rule book. From Top to bottom: 1 - No LOS, 2 - Yes LOS, 3 - No LOS (The Zombie is blocking LOS to itself, and page 12 says there is NO LOS), 4 - Yes LOS
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