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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shards of the Throne» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Yet another race ranking rss

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Damo
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Do the number of players have any influence on your list?


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JohanCarstensen wrote:
Probably. We seldom play 3-4 and 8 player games and never 2 player games. This last year have been mostly 7 player games. Before that 5-6 player games. And we have a pool of about 20 players that come to our games.


That's what I was thinking.

Our games are usuallly 3-player, somes 4,5 or rarely, 6.

So the "faster-out-of-the-box" races tend to be more likely to win.
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Either way, thanks for the ranking.

I wouldn't have thought the Neckro virus would have been that successful. Interesting.
 
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Grzegorz Szymanski
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Sardak 'Norr so high? I'm curious what is your reasoning.
Having limited experience with TI (I play only with the same 6-8 people) I find Xxcha better than Sardak.
 
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Necessary Evil
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How do you justify Naalu being that low?

-M
 
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Mikael Halonen
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The Noor are bad in the early game but a real contender later. I think the reason most people think Noor is the worst race are that there is always an early game but not always a late game.
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Fedor Syagin
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JohanCarstensen wrote:

I don't think I have ever seen them win a game and personally I like other races better. It was a hard choice between them and Universities of Jol-Nar .

Once again we see that what really matter is group of people playing.
In our group every time Naalu is present they are very strong contender with some solid wins.
the only reason they don't win more often is people are well aware how dangerous their going/scoring first is.
But in our group for example Barony never managed to do well in term of VP. Yes they do tend to be strong, but even when people who play them try to focus on VP they end up being dragged into war too much. So different groups very different experience. That why I love this game even more.
If everyone had 100% agreement on race standing - we would have serious issues. If we have same race win 95% - the game would have been broken Neither is the case...
 
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miloboy gogogo
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Norr
Representsive is really aggressive
don't want to mess with them

I just wonder why sol is 10th

he gain 3CC per turn is really good
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K S
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I'm confused about your main focus in this ranking - to me it seem that you focus more the races combat abillity/fleet strenght, than their abbilty to score those vital VP (except for Yssaril, but they are first in all others rankings, so good thing you kept them there).

Naalu and Jol nar are way too low. Warsuns with Nano, LW and Gravitydrive + the works can take whatever VP's they need in mid game. Naalu's initiative 0 is a gamebreaker.

Yeah Letnev can fight and produce and their new Race tech is nice (except against Mentaks FS), but 2nd place...I don't think so?

I like playing the N'orr, but wins are very difficult with theese guys.

Nekro third - I don't get it, please clarify..
 
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JohnnyC Waytobe
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JohanCarstensen wrote:
Kristobal wrote:
... you focus more the races combat abillity/fleet strength...


Yes that's true. We are of course playing with the "Variant Objectives" option and not the once that are replaced from the base game. VP:s is now more often scoured when attacking your opponents and the game is more about that since Shattered Empire came out. Shards of the throne enables you to get a strong fleet with a lot of movement. Stacking bad technologies and resources is history in this game now. Resent games have been focusing more on player elimination since war in the galaxy is the only way to victory now a days. I will quote Game of Thrones - "Power is Power".

Imagine this: 7 players sitting next to you and they all want to attack you because you have the most VP:s, there is not much to do if you don't have the strongest fleet or the best tactics.


I think this is an interesting variant, and the analysis seems mostly on point as to which races have the best production/military. However, I think that if you were to play (with all the expansions) with normal victory conditions, that your ranking would be quite different.
 
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Maltuvion Irewood
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JohanCarstensen wrote:

I think they are excellent in the early game. Especially against races with -1 on all dice roles whistle


Norr would get stomped fast in any PBF game even remotely competitive. And it's ludicrous to call Universities bad, any good player can (ab)use them heavily. The staple opener of micro+nanotech in 1st turn after using your 3 trade to incentivize trade being popped in 1st turn is a classic and gives an enormous headstart that is hard to even out until mid-late/late game.
 
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Mikael Halonen
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My ranking:

1. The Yssaril Tribes
2. The Clan of Saar
3. The Emirates of Hacan
4. The Mentak Coalition
5. The Naalu Collective
6. The Lizix Mindnet
7. Universities of Jol-Nar
8. The Ghosts of Creuss
9. The Nekro Virus
10. Federation of Sol
11. The Barony of Letnev
12. The Embers of Muaat
13. Sardakk N'orr
14. The Arborec
15. The Xxcha Kingdom
16. The Yin Brotherhood
17. The Winnu

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Mikael Halonen
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I have won three out of four games playing them. Their power comes from never having to worry about losing the homesystem. This is huge because instead of turtling, you can move out more fleets and docks to achieve your objectives and take more planets elsewhere, which in turn will grant you more tradegoods thx to their 2nd ability. They also have great mobility and can position their docks almost anywhere, even in open space or astroid fields.
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Martin DeOlden
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Mikael Halonen wrote:
I have won three out of four games playing them. Their power comes from never having to worry about losing the homesystem. This is huge because instead of turtling, you can move out more fleets and docks to achieve your objectives and take more planets elsewhere, which in turn will grant you more tradegoods thx to their 2nd ability. They also have great mobility and can position their docks almost anywhere, even in open space or astroid fields.


Their mobility has won me a few games as well.
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Brian Petersen
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That's not an "equivalent" fleet. Jol-Nar's costs more, less fleet supply, and has less hits capable of taking. AFB is one-sided in this fight. The only similar thing is the number of dies rolled during combat when AFB misses.

Was AFB included? Starting techs? Potential Jol-Nar techs such as Duranium Armor and Cybernetics (with WSs and Starting Techs, Jol-Nar already has the pre-reqs)?

Combat win percentage in this game is swayed far more by number of hits rolled and required than +1/-1.
 
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Fedor Syagin
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JohanCarstensen wrote:
No, they have not invented tech in that simulator yet. But I think fleets are about what you could expect in the mid game if Jolnar rely focus on getting those War Suns on the table. And I guess the Sardakk fleet is smaller than what it could have been. So I think it's a fair fight considering that.


Actually funny thing is - in reality both fleets would be bigger.

Let's imagine this scenario both races don't lose any ships in the game (otherwise we cannot predict who lose more etc.)


Nor starts with Total of 4 resources worth in Planets. Production capacity of 6.
Jol-Nar starts with Total of 3 resources worth in Planets, but with 2 planets and starting with Sarween tools and Enviro that translates into 4 resources worth of build per turn and capacity of 5. With Scientisc early second dock is possible with capacity going to 9 and resources from starting planet goes to 5.

Trade advantage is Jol-Nar (having trade 3 agreement they are more likely to get higher trade agreement early in the game.

Starting fleets Nor:1 Carrier and 1 Cruiser (no fighters)
Starting fleet Jol-Nar:2 Carriers, Dreadnaught and 1 Fighter.
With 2 carriers starting expansion for Jor-Nar is easier so actually they most likely have more planets = more resources earlier. With 2 Scientist one can be send to get discounts for tech.
Let's assume Jol-Nar actually takes it slowly and tech is played every turn - so they get warsun as free tech in 2 steps and take one other tech before that.
So that gives us about 3 turns of both races buying fleets, taking trade goods and getting planets.
Overall we can expect Jol-Nar to get resources faster (extra carrier, trade advantage - we are not taking any techs like Nano into account since that would cost them resources.)
after they purchased warsun tech they would have to spend 11 resources to buy it.
So accounting for free figthers (later on 4 free fighters if double docked due to early yellow techs)and bigger starting fleet I just cannot see scenario where Nor would have such amazing fleet facing single war sun without any support.
Considering fleet size limitation and number of plastic that can be build per turn all the money that Nor can save by not buying Warsun still cannot really give them that much bigger fleet unless they invest heavily into Dreadnaughts. Assuming Nor even managed to get into fleet supply of 8 and Jol-Nar staying at let's say 5 (I seen fleet supply of 4 with Jol-Nar but even that's unlikely) then the fleet composition to overload Warsun considering that Nor always catching up with fleet size (1f + dread+ carrier >> cruiser!) I cannot see Jol-Nar being in such a bad position.

Even assuming assuming all resources go to fleet and let's imagine no planet gained and all trade goods for Jol-Nar go to warsun.
4 turn = 4x4 = 16 worth of resource for Nor. (no free fighters.)
4 turn = 3x3 = 9 worth of resource for Jol-Nar ( 4 free resources from tech = 8 free figthers) (last turn resources go to warsun )
4 turn = 3x3-2 = 7 worth of resource for Jol-Nar double docked (1+2x2+1 =6 worth of free resources from tech in double docks 12 free fighters)

Let's assume also nor get same amount of trade good = 8 that was needed for jol-nar to finish warsun.

So starting fleet of Nor can be increased by 24 worth of resource taking into account plastic limit 24 (6 per turn.)
Starting Fleet of Jolnar Can be increased by 7 resources with plastic limit of 32. Taking out 12 free fighters = 20 plastic limit. + one extra tech they have prerequisites for.

So feel free to build a good scenario for Nor to use those resources and fleet supply of 8 (hard but doable)
and Jolnar let's say having fleet supply of 5 (6 would be more realistic, we need to keep into account the they need to spend one for secondary tech for 3 rounds!) and don't forget to add starting fleets into your consideration.






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Mikael Halonen
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Using the same fleets Jol-Nar actually have the advantage against other races.

Player 1 (Jolnar) win probability: 54.01
Player 2 (Other) win probability: 37.08
Probability of draw: 8.50
Accuracy: 99.5844

I think the Jol-Nar vs Sardakk result you got says more about Sardakk than Jol-Nar.
 
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Mikael Halonen
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Quote:
Mikael: What fleet are you using?


The same fleets as your previous example.

Other:

6 fighter
1 carrier
1 destroyer
1 dreadnaugt

Jolnar:

6 fighter
1 warsun

Player 1 (Other) win probability: 37.09
Player 2 (Jolnar) win probability: 54.01
Probability of draw: 8.49
Accuracy: 99.5897
 
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Mikael Halonen
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Quote:
Consider this fight (same fleets this time):

Fighters: 2
Carriers: 1
Cruisers: 1

This is a quite common setup for an early fight

Any other race vs Jolnar

Player 1 (Any other race) win probability: 73.83
Player 2 (Jolnar) win probability: 22.78
Probability of draw: 3.37
Accuracy: 99.9783

Even if I give Jolnar 2 Cruisers instead of 2 Fighters they don't have the odds on there side:

Any other race vs Jolnar

Player 1 (Any other race) win probability: 48.56
Player 2 (Jolnar) win probability: 47.64
Probability of draw: 3.79
Accuracy: 99.9852

They rely need a massive fleet to even take out the smallest of threats.


Massive fleet? Give Jol-nar just 2 more fighters and they are in a good position.

Player 1 (Jolnar) win probability: 61.63
Player 2 (Other) win probability: 35.23
Probability of draw: 3.06
Accuracy: 99.9120

 
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Mikael Halonen
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We already know that jol-nar are at disadvantage when facing equal or greater fleets(unless they have invested i several military upgrades) so these numbers are neither supricing or useful. Whats interesting to know is just how much bigger fleet you have to have to be in a winning position with the jol-nar.
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Brian Petersen
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I'd like to point out that the Jol-Nar can recover from the units lost much faster than N'orr can. Lose the battle, but win the War.

Combat-tech wise, Jol-Nar can be assumed to have 6 DSC PDS and ADT, with a minimum of 1 DD per fleet. They could also easily have Cybernetics and Assault Cannons and Duranium Armor, with 1 DN per core system, and 1-5 FFs per fleet.

"We already know that jol-nar are at disadvantage when facing equal or greater fleets(unless they have invested i several military upgrades) so these numbers are neither supricing or useful. Whats interesting to know is just how much bigger fleet you have to have to be in a winning position with the jol-nar."

Biggest question: Is Jol-Nar attacking or defending?

If defending, the enemy FFs are annihilated, end of story. Even if Jol-Nar lose, they can eliminate the rest of the fleet easily with more PDS.

If attacking, the Jol-Nar vs N'orr scenario is biased towards N'orr due to PDS fire, unless we're setting the scene at MR. In that case, N'orr can rebuild 3 units there per round, and Jol-Nar can send their entire fleet there every round.

As for how much larger of a fleet, it depends how you want to define "win". Having one unit left afterwards would mean that usually they would win with 3 more units after pre-combat. If you want no losses, you're talking 5 NT+DA+AC DNs, no FFs, 6 DSC PDS, 3 DDs.
 
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Mikael Halonen
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Quote:
I'd like to point out that the Jol-Nar can recover from the units lost much faster than N'orr can. Lose the battle, but win the War.

Combat-tech wise, Jol-Nar can be assumed to have 6 DSC PDS and ADT, with a minimum of 1 DD per fleet. They could also easily have Cybernetics and Assault Cannons and Duranium Armor, with 1 DN per core system, and 1-5 FFs per fleet.

"We already know that jol-nar are at disadvantage when facing equal or greater fleets(unless they have invested i several military upgrades) so these numbers are neither supricing or useful. Whats interesting to know is just how much bigger fleet you have to have to be in a winning position with the jol-nar."

Biggest question: Is Jol-Nar attacking or defending?

If defending, the enemy FFs are annihilated, end of story. Even if Jol-Nar lose, they can eliminate the rest of the fleet easily with more PDS.

If attacking, the Jol-Nar vs N'orr scenario is biased towards N'orr due to PDS fire, unless we're setting the scene at MR. In that case, N'orr can rebuild 3 units there per round, and Jol-Nar can send their entire fleet there every round.

As for how much larger of a fleet, it depends how you want to define "win". Having one unit left afterwards would mean that usually they would win with 3 more units after pre-combat. If you want no losses, you're talking 5 NT+DA+AC DNs, no FFs, 6 DSC PDS, 3 DDs.


Would you mind explaining all the shorternings you use?
 
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Brian Petersen
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Units:
DD=Destroyer.
DN=Dreadnaught.
FF=Fighter.
PDS=PDS.

Techs:
DSC= Deep Space Cannon.
NT=NanoTech.
DA=Duranium Armor.
ADT=Automated Defense Turrets.
AC=Assault Cannon (in this case. Could also mean Action Card).
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Mikael Halonen
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Quote:
I'd like to point out that the Jol-Nar can recover from the units lost much faster than N'orr can. Lose the battle, but win the War.

Combat-tech wise, Jol-Nar can be assumed to have 6 DSC PDS and ADT, with a minimum of 1 DD per fleet. They could also easily have Cybernetics and Assault Cannons and Duranium Armor, with 1 DN per core system, and 1-5 FFs per fleet.

"We already know that jol-nar are at disadvantage when facing equal or greater fleets(unless they have invested i several military upgrades) so these numbers are neither supricing or useful. Whats interesting to know is just how much bigger fleet you have to have to be in a winning position with the jol-nar."

Biggest question: Is Jol-Nar attacking or defending?

If defending, the enemy FFs are annihilated, end of story. Even if Jol-Nar lose, they can eliminate the rest of the fleet easily with more PDS.

[q]If attacking, the Jol-Nar vs N'orr scenario is biased towards N'orr due to PDS fire, unless we're setting the scene at MR. In that case, N'orr can rebuild 3 units there per round, and Jol-Nar can send their entire fleet there every round.

As for how much larger of a fleet, it depends how you want to define "win". Having one unit left afterwards would mean that usually they would win with 3 more units after pre-combat. If you want no losses, you're talking 5 NT+DA+AC DNs, no FFs, 6 DSC PDS, 3 DDs.


Thanks for the translations. Very good points here. I also think the Norr will have trouble to actually conquer the Jol-Nar. Jol-Nar seem to be one of the best races when it comes to wars of attrition, much thanks to their racial tech.

Anyway, for me the hypotectical battles beetwen Jol-Nar and Sardak Norr was just to determine how much of a difference their abillities make on a single space battle. And in this scenario a win would at least equal control of the system.
 
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Brian Petersen
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See, their racial tech works on defense. All combats are biased towards defender. The Jol-Nar point it out hard-core because of how many techs they get.

Racial Tech = Come at me brah, you don't even have to move here and I get TGs.
Deep Space Cannon = 6 shots now, another 6 when I counter-attack.
Gen Synthesis = Kill my GFs so I can attack you with them again
Dacxive Animators = When I re-attack, I end with more GFs than I had before you attacked in the first place.
Nano Technology = Take my planet so I can spend it a second time.

Economically: Sarween Tools, Microtechnology, Neural Motivator, Neural Computing+Scientists (can result in 3 techs for cost 2 total per round), Hyper Metabolism.

Super-duper late game:
X-89: Win every attacking invasion (and rez all the GFs)
DSC+ADT+AC: Nearly maximized pre-combat
Fleet Logistics (FL) and Lightwave Deflector (LWD) with high movement: Hit a huge Production Center, reinforce yourself, or move a small force in the way, or take two Artifacts at once.
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