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7 Wonders: Manneken Pis» Forums » Rules

Subject: Manneken Pis & 2 stage wonders rss

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Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
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When Manneken Pis came out, there was only one other wonder this less than 3 stages, so you always get something for building the third stage of MP on side A.

Now with the addition of Rome, Catan, Petra and Byzantium/Constantinople, there is a greater chance that both adjacent opponents to the MP player could have no adjacent player with a third stage they can copy.

Is there an official ruling for this?

My two ideas are:
- If neither adjacent player has a 3rd stage, beuilding this stage will award 7VP.
- If an adjacent player does not have the appropriate stage, skip that player and copy the the appropriate stage next player in that particular direction--skipping any players without a second/third stage.
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Richard Sampson
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
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What is wrong with not building the 3rd stage if it isn't useful? You don't always have to finish your wonder.
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Kyle W.
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Up Nort' Der
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The other Wonders get by just fine with only two stages, and so can MP if it happens to be between them.
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PenumbraPenguin
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Alternatively, you could interpret the final stage as copying the final stage of a neighbor, rather than the 3rd stage. Too good? I don't know - we don't like or use this wonder much.
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Jacek Deimer
Poland
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To be honest, I can't see the problem!

If a wonder has only 2 stages, they are generally powerful and expensive.
As Manneken Pis you can build them at great discount ( 2 resources instead of 4 or 5). So, there is nothink to complain!

My conclusioni is, that it may be even better to sit between 2-stage wonders!
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Dennis de Vries
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Deventer
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The way I interpret it is that for example the Colossos/Rhodos only has a second and a third stage, the same goes for Petra and Byzanthium (the stages aren't starting from the 'first stage bar' on the wondercard. The question remains what to do with a 'copy a wonder stage' and no wonder stage is there to be copied... Just bad luck!

For me the 2-steps are 2nd and 3rd stage for the Manneken Pis copy ability.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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Menghini wrote:


For me the 2-steps are 2nd and 3rd stage for the Manneken Pis copy ability.


That's a fine house rule, but rulebook clearly label them as 1st and 2nd, so that's propably official clarification!
 
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Dennis de Vries
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Reid666 wrote:
Menghini wrote:


For me the 2-steps are 2nd and 3rd stage for the Manneken Pis copy ability.


That's a fine house rule, but rulebook clearly label them as 1st and 2nd, so that's propably official clarification!


I don't know if it's a house rule. You are right about the rulebook saying it's the first and second stage, but when you start counting, you never start with 2, do you?

The reason why I think it's meant as a second and third stage is because of the location of the brown bars indicating the wonder stages: they are on the 2nd and 3rd place of the wonder card (in comparison with 3-step wonders). But maybe I'm wrong and I'm seeing details I should not be seeing...? What do you think?
 
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Richard Sampson
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Menghini wrote:
Reid666 wrote:
Menghini wrote:


For me the 2-steps are 2nd and 3rd stage for the Manneken Pis copy ability.


That's a fine house rule, but rulebook clearly label them as 1st and 2nd, so that's propably official clarification!


I don't know if it's a house rule. You are right about the rulebook saying it's the first and second stage, but when you start counting, you never start with 2, do you?

The reason why I think it's meant as a second and third stage is because of the location of the brown bars indicating the wonder stages: they are on the 2nd and 3rd place of the wonder card (in comparison with 3-step wonders). But maybe I'm wrong and I'm seeing details I should not be seeing...? What do you think?
Look at the pyramid images on the wonder spots. Regardless of the number of stages, they always go 1 layer, 2 layers, etc. Manneken Pis B even hast just a solid pyramid. If they wanted to start with 2 and then 3, it seems they would have made the images 2 layers and then 3 layers allowing them to reuse the same image, but they went out of their way to make new images with fewer/more layers.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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Menghini wrote:
The reason why I think it's meant as a second and third stage is because of the location of the brown bars indicating the wonder stages: they are on the 2nd and 3rd place of the wonder card (in comparison with 3-step wonders). But maybe I'm wrong and I'm seeing details I should not be seeing...? What do you think?


The problem is that there is a big inconsistency in placement of stages on 2-stage boards:

Rhodos - they are to the right (like 2nd & 3rd)
Catan - they are to the left (like 1st & 2nd)
Roma, Petra, Byzantium, Cupertino - in the middle (like... we can guess its new formating style)

So I think it's better to go by the shortest and most intuitive interpretation of the rules! So 2 stage wonders have first and second stage.

And yes, I agree that placement of wonder slots on Rhodes is confusing.I think it's because it was first 2 stage wonder. New 2 stage wonders have wonder slots in the middle. It's safe to assume that future ones will follow this pattern.

 
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Guillaume Tutundjian
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I agree with Jacek above but I still have one 'problem'.

It is with Byzantium: don't you think that the final stage is a little bit to powerful / inexpensive for the owner of the Manneken Pis?

I mean, 14 points for only two ressources??
 
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brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
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Have we ever gotten a final official answer on this?

My problem with saying, well the original wonder only has two stages so this is fine, is that MP is copying only half of a 2-stage Wonder and so may not be as balanced as that 2-stage wonder is itself.
 
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PenumbraPenguin
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The value of Manneken Pis varies wildly depending on its neighbors anyway - some wonders have good first stage powers and weaker later stages, and the reverse.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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I think we will get better answer to this question when new, updated version of Manneken Pis get released as part of Wonder Pack. Hopefully with extensive rules explanation...

I always treated side A as a big gamble, if you got right neighbours you could get very expensive wonder stages a lot cheaper (Rhodos, Catan, Giza, Petra). Or you could get an incompatible mess...

Also there is small problem with Cities and Petra B, 14 points for 2 resources, that doesn't feel right...
 
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mateenyweeny
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Did we ever get an answer for this?
 
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Matthew Silverman
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I got an email from Antoine and he replied with,

The third Manneken Pis wonder step copies the "last step" of its neighbor so there is always a "last step" to copy !

So for example,

If you have Manneken Pis (A), your neighbour has Stonehenge (B) to the left of you and Roma (A) to the right of you, then you get the first stage of Stonehenge (B) (1 coin and 1 VP for stone symbols), the second stage of Roma (A) which is 6 VP and you get the "last step" of Stonehenge (B) which is where the player flips the card used to build this stage and then the player receives 1VP for each card of that colour present in both neighbouring cities

Hope that makes sense

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Tables
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Coventry
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MattyG123 wrote:
I got an email from Antoine and he replied with,

The third Manneken Pis wonder step copies the "last step" of its neighbor so there is always a "last step" to copy !

So for example,

If you have Manneken Pis (A), your neighbour has Stonehenge (B) to the left of you and Roma (A) to the right of you, then you get the first stage of Stonehenge (B) (1 coin and 1 VP for stone symbols), the second stage of Roma (A) which is 6 VP and you get the "last step" of Stonehenge (B) which is where the player flips the card used to build this stage and then the player receives 1VP for each card of that colour present in both neighbouring cities

Hope that makes sense



This is in response to Mannekin Pis from the wonder pack, not Mannekin Pis the promo. The promo copies a 3rd stage, which doesn't exist if you're between two 2 stage wonders.
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Sam Lambert
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Highland
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Played last night with Manneken Pis and had someone with two stages on one side and 4 stages on the other side.

Rather than figure it out, I just used the 1-stage side of Mannekin Pis.
 
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