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Subject: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1500 games rss

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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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UPDATE: New version including influence and scores: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AugMiPlH3rBAdGp...

UPDATE: Now in spreadhseet format, with ~1500 games: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AugMiPlH3rBAdFV...

(Previous at ~1100 games: http://i.imgur.com/Q7vze.png)

I just wanted to share a snapshot of how the current faction balance is in the game.

Initially the runners were having a distinct advantage, winning a solid 60% of their games. However in the last few days, the corps have been making a comeback and the difference in balance is growing more and more statistically insignificant.

Keep in mind that this is a work in progress. There's still a few bad games in the mix which I'll be able to exclude when I get a proper export and start number crunching.

Some other interesting tidbits:

* The popularity of A:NR on OCTGN has exploded since the tournament announcement. This is great for everyone involved as there's more people playing and thus you have to wait less to play.
* At the moment, I am seeing ~120 games completed on average per day, even on workdays! It's great to see that many people enjoying it, and it's a big change of the less than 20 games a day I was seeing back in v1.1.12.


Hopefully soon I'll have something more detailed I'll be able to share with you all. Until then, keep on running!
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Arto H
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
Those statistics makes sense for me. Just very surprised to see Criminals to win so much (over 60% win). I feel they have to spend too much influence on out of faction icebreakers and their tricks are quite easy to see in advance. They are good against Weyland tho. Highest win percentage with Weyland makes sense because new players might not be aware how to play against Scorched Earths (shortest games makes sense also). It would interesting to see the statistics without only starter decks so there would more sense to do constructed meta analyze.

I first thought the game balance was strongly on runner side. I still think the balance is slightly on runner side. I feel Corp is way harder side to learn to play well thought.
 
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Agent J
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
I've contributed a lot more losses than wins to that chart.
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Myck Kabongo
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games

If I were on the design team, I'd be concerned. Those Criminal numbers are not a fluke.

Account Siphon is too strong. Right now, competitive Jinteki and HB decks (the most popular corps) are not credible meat damage threats so the tags can be taken with impunity. People have figured this out and are now popping off multiple 15 credit swings per game. BTW, those 5 bits the corp loses have a huge impact on their ability to get a decent defense up against further Account Siphons, etc.

Dismiss Criminal's winning at your peril.
 
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
MyckKabongo wrote:

If I were on the design team, I'd be concerned. Those Criminal numbers are not a fluke.

Account Siphon is too strong. Right now, competitive Jinteki and HB decks (the most popular corps) are not credible meat damage threats so the tags can be taken with impunity. People have figured this out and are now popping off multiple 15 credit swings per game. BTW, those 5 bits the corp loses have a huge impact on their ability to get a decent defense up against further Account Siphons, etc.

Dismiss Criminal's winning at your peril.


Joke's on the Criminal!

NBN never has 5 credits! Also, we loooove tags. "Oops, your credits are gone..."

Oh gosh, we spent all our credits on tracing... nothing left...
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
MyckKabongo wrote:

If I were on the design team, I'd be concerned. Those Criminal numbers are not a fluke.

Account Siphon is too strong. Right now, competitive Jinteki and HB decks (the most popular corps) are not credible meat damage threats so the tags can be taken with impunity. People have figured this out and are now popping off multiple 15 credit swings per game. BTW, those 5 bits the corp loses have a huge impact on their ability to get a decent defense up against further Account Siphons, etc.

Dismiss Criminal's winning at your peril.


With the current metagame, account siphon is very powerful, yes, but once we get more powerful tag punishment and get every faction access to one without influence cost, then it's going to go down in usefulness fast. I'm willing to see how the metagame will counter it, but until then, it also serves as an important reason to ICE-up your HQ.
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David Boeren
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
DbZer0 wrote:
With the current metagame, account siphon is very powerful, yes, but once we get more tag punishment, and ones that are strong and one per faction, then it's going to go down in usefulness fast. I'm willing to see how the metagame will counter it, but until then, it also serves as an important reason to ICE-up your HQ.


This. What people keep forgetting is that we're only seeing a fraction of the game right now.

And +1 to icing up your HQ, that's something you ought to be doing anyway IMHO, *especially* if you're facing Criminals - Siphon or not.
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Agent J
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
dboeren wrote:
DbZer0 wrote:
With the current metagame, account siphon is very powerful, yes, but once we get more tag punishment, and ones that are strong and one per faction, then it's going to go down in usefulness fast. I'm willing to see how the metagame will counter it, but until then, it also serves as an important reason to ICE-up your HQ.


This. What people keep forgetting is that we're only seeing a fraction of the game right now.

And +1 to icing up your HQ, that's something you ought to be doing anyway IMHO, *especially* if you're facing Criminals - Siphon or not.


They sold that fraction as a pack you can play out of, therefore it should be the most balanced fraction of the game at any given point. But account syphon isn't so strong as, say, Magnum Opus, where you can just generate credits in your sleep without having to run for them, or break any ice, it just sort of appears... account syphon, well, it can really jump-start the runner's economy, but that's what ICE is for. If the runner has easy access to you you're doing it wrong anyway.
 
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Myck Kabongo
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
Sigh... I should have known that my comments would elicit multiple replies that I'm not playing right against Criminal ("ICE your HQ"). Go look at those numbers again. We're not talking about me here--we're talking about everyone on OCTGN and Criminal is winning at an extremely high rate.
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Arto H
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
MyckKabongo wrote:

If I were on the design team, I'd be concerned. Those Criminal numbers are not a fluke.

Account Siphon is too strong. Right now, competitive Jinteki and HB decks (the most popular corps) are not credible meat damage threats so the tags can be taken with impunity. People have figured this out and are now popping off multiple 15 credit swings per game. BTW, those 5 bits the corp loses have a huge impact on their ability to get a decent defense up against further Account Siphons, etc.

Dismiss Criminal's winning at your peril.


I don't see Account Siphon so scary, it is good tho. I feel it is more Gabriel ability which is amazing (+Desperado). They get money what runners are supposed to do anyway, no need to waste clicks to get creds. Siphon can be devastating in early game but later turns it loses power, HQ is the place to defend against criminals anyway. But I agree that tags with Criminals (against HB and Jinteki) doesn't matter so much because Criminals don't rely resources (bank job doesn't matter with tag) so much when compared to other runners. Well, you have to be careful against Private Security Force still.

I agree there is slight tag problem in the game. Sometimes they decides games and sometimes they don't matter much at all.
 
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Agent J
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
MyckKabongo wrote:
Sigh... I should have known that my comments would elicit multiple replies that I'm not playing right against Criminal ("ICE your HQ"). Go look at those numbers again. We're not talking about me here--we're talking about everyone on OCTGN and Criminal is winning at an extremely high rate.


So, many people need to play better against Criminal, then!
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Konstantinos Thoukydidis
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
MyckKabongo wrote:
Sigh... I should have known that my comments would elicit multiple replies that I'm not playing right against Criminal ("ICE your HQ"). Go look at those numbers again. We're not talking about me here--we're talking about everyone on OCTGN and Criminal is winning at an extremely high rate.


And we're also talking about new players and a new game. At the start, the stats also looked significantly more to the benefit of runners, but now slowly people are learning to play corp and it's balancing out.

I don't disagree that criminals seem to have an advantage, but lets not declare imba just yet. We still have to filter out starter-deck results in order to see a clearer picture.
 
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
There's a lot of new players. Criminal's tricks, though easy to see through ONCE YOU'VE FACED THEM, really trick you out the first time they're used. Same as Weyland's Scorched Earth.
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
I think the reason Criminal is doing so well is due to their ability to be so cautioned in their decisions. Infiltration/Lemuria/Inside Job/Forged Activation Orders... these combat some of the nastier things out there now.

Most Criminal games I can play without ever being tagged during my opponent's turn.
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Roberto Gonzegas

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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
I am highly, highly curious as to how your data looks when you filter out decks that use zero Influence!
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Agent J
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
Azgard12 wrote:
I think the reason Criminal is doing so well is due to their ability to be so cautioned in their decisions. Infiltration/Lemuria/Inside Job/Forged Activation Orders... these combat some of the nastier things out there now.

Most Criminal games I can play without ever being tagged during my opponent's turn.


Interesting observation.

You can see, and then go around, what's out there instead of being a 'blind' runner.

Yet, corps thickening their decks with things like that asset that lets you stop a card from being exposed... I guess I never saw the point.

But an end the run ICE will still end the run, as long as it's not Femmed or on the very outside. And they only get in once with an inside job.
 
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Josh Paulik
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
[quote=""]But account syphon isn't so strong as, say, Magnum Opus[/quote]

I don't think Account Siphon is overpowered, but Magnum Opus is terrible.
 
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
JoshTheStampede wrote:
I don't think Account Siphon is overpowered, but Magnum Opus is terrible.


Really? Why?
 
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
Jythier wrote:
JoshTheStampede wrote:
I don't think Account Siphon is overpowered, but Magnum Opus is terrible.


Really? Why?


Look at how much it costs, and the MU cost, versus how long it takes to pay for itself.

It's 5 credits and 2 MU, for the privelege of spending clicks to get 2 credits.

Even ignoring the MU cost, you're still spending a card, an action, and 5 credits, putting you somewhere between 7 and 9 "effort" in the hole, in order to gain a modest increase over the default action economy. That means you need to use it a minimum of 7 times before you are definitely better off than you would have been had you not played it.
 
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
JoshTheStampede wrote:
Jythier wrote:
JoshTheStampede wrote:
I don't think Account Siphon is overpowered, but Magnum Opus is terrible.


Really? Why?


Look at how much it costs, and the MU cost, versus how long it takes to pay for itself.

It's 5 credits and 2 MU, for the privelege of spending clicks to get 2 credits.

Even ignoring the MU cost, you're still spending a card, an action, and 5 credits, putting you somewhere between 7 and 9 "effort" in the hole, in order to gain a modest increase over the default action economy. That means you need to use it a minimum of 7 times before you are definitely better off than you would have been had you not played it.


How many times do you click for a credit each game?
 
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
Jythier wrote:
There's a lot of new players. Criminal's tricks, though easy to see through ONCE YOU'VE FACED THEM, really trick you out the first time they're used. Same as Weyland's Scorched Earth.


I disagree with the notion that OCTGN players are noobs. If anything most OCTGN games are likely to take place between the most hardcore ANR players. Who else is investing the time and energy to play online?

You can know exactly what tricks are up a criminal's sleeves and still have a difficult time against them. It is very expensive to pay for a credible defense on all 3 central servers in the early game. And good luck stopping a determined Criminal from pulling off an Account Siphon. BTW, that 8 credit ICE you desperately need to get rezzed to seal off the front door? It just got FAOed. Those credits from the mining corp you desperately need to stop the onslaught? Your mining corp just got trashed on an inside job run.

As much as I wish the solution to everything were just "play better," it isn't always the answer in CCG metas. I am sure that if you peel back the hood on DB0s numbers, you'd find that people with strong winning percentages on OCGTN are taking disproportionate losses against criminal just as much as the noobs.
 
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
If you're not playing Magnum Opus with Modded as Kate (2 cards, 1 credit and 1 click), then you shouldn't be playing it.

When you play it that way, it's comparable to installing Armitage Codebusting, isn't a resource and lasts as long as you want it to.
 
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
My impression was the OCTGN was also full of people who don't get to play offline at all, but want to play...

I guess I still have time to build a criminal deck and prove to you, through tournament play, that criminal can still lose horribly.
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
Jythier wrote:


How many times do you click for a credit each game?


Certainly less as runner than as corp, which is why I'm not saying the same thing about Melange. I haven't counted, but I am not sure that it would be more than 8 times a game. Which puts it right on the edge of being worth it, at which point its a question of whether there are better choices for the deck slot, which I think there certainly are.

Full disclosure: I don't play Kate, so that may have something to do with this. As Gabriel I've never had money problems, and Noise needs a little less money to function so Armitage and Sure Gamble work just fine.

ffaristocrat wrote:
If you're not playing Magnum Opus with Modded as Kate (2 cards, 1 credit and 1 click), then you shouldn't be playing it.

When you play it that way, it's comparable to installing Armitage Codebusting, isn't a resource and lasts as long as you want it to.


Agreed. I think resource vs. program is pretty much an even tradeoff - one is vulnerable to tags, the other is vulnerable to ichi/secretary and costs MU.

I still think Armitage is better, but Kate plus Modded (and Kate should be running Modded x3 anyway) makes it worth playing.

 
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Re: A:NR OCTGN Faction balance after ~1100 games
JoshTheStampede wrote:
Jythier wrote:
JoshTheStampede wrote:
I don't think Account Siphon is overpowered, but Magnum Opus is terrible.


Really? Why?


Look at how much it costs, and the MU cost, versus how long it takes to pay for itself.

It's 5 credits and 2 MU, for the privelege of spending clicks to get 2 credits.

Even ignoring the MU cost, you're still spending a card, an action, and 5 credits, putting you somewhere between 7 and 9 "effort" in the hole, in order to gain a modest increase over the default action economy. That means you need to use it a minimum of 7 times before you are definitely better off than you would have been had you not played it.


In my experience, Shapers WILL use Magnum Opus atleast 7+ times and fuel multiple big runs. it IS a longgame program, but allows you to plan to be rich over and over in way that no other runner card can currently. You also get some "free" effort to cast it via Kate's ID and/or Modded that throws off the ROI so that it pays back quicker than 7 times. i can see this card being outclassed one day by a speedy metagame possibly, but it is a valid engine in the current card pool.

edit: ninja'd, but still true.
 
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