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Struggle of Empires» Forums » Rules

Subject: Land combat and Forts rss

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Michal Žamboch
Czech Republic
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Hi!
I only have one fort in the area and as a defender win the battle with a 7.

Do I Suffer a loss of fort?

Sorry. I'm not good at English.
 
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alan beaumont
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Forts and 7s
Yes, I am afraid you do, because a 7 kills an additional unit (0 +1 =1).

(Your English is at least as good as Martin Wallace's when he wrote these rules. )
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Richard Young
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And I believe the rules also say that a fort is always the last unit to be lost in casualties - so if all you had (or have left) is a fort, away it goes...
 
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Michal Žamboch
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Ok.
And how will it be if the battle ends in a draw and defender was 7?
 
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alan beaumont
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Hard Fort battles
The Fort is unharmed by the Draw, but then is destroyed by the 7.
 
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alan beaumont
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Forts and 7s
Bubslug wrote:
And I believe the rules also say that a fort is always the last unit to be lost in casualties - so if all you had (or have left) is a fort, away it goes...
That isn't in the rules, but a Draw cannot harm a Fort, so it would be the casualty due to a 7, if the only unit left after a first casualty.
 
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karel vlasak
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Alan,
are you sure about this?
As I understand the rules, there are quite contradictory sentences there: If your battle result is 7, you lose a unit no matter if you win or lose the battle (nothing about a draw : - ).
And another sentence: you never lose a fort in a draw, if this was the only unit in the battle.
So which of the two precedes?
I am really confused.
Thanks.
 
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alan beaumont
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In the event of a tied battle both sides will lose a unit, but a Fort is immune to ties, so an accompanying Army unit will die. If you rolled a 7 in that tie an additional unit will die.
This must be the Fort if it is the last unit, or you could lose another Army, or you will lose an ally's army if a player was helping you, because allies always suffer the second casualty.
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Ray.T
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zambochm wrote:
Hi!
I only have one fort in the area and as a defender win the battle with a 7.

Do I Suffer a loss of fort?

Sorry. I'm not good at English.


Yes, if you won because "If either players' dice add up to '7' then they lose one additional unit." (Pg.4 rules)

No, if it was a tie because, "A fort is never lost in a tie, no matter what the circumstances are." (Pg.4 rules)
 
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alan beaumont
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RayGuns wrote:
zambochm wrote:
Hi!
I only have one fort in the area and as a defender win the battle with a 7.

Do I Suffer a loss of fort?


No, if it was a tie because, "A fort is never lost in a tie, no matter what the circumstances are." (Pg.4 rules)

I have to disagree, the loss isn't because of a tie, it is because of the 7, described as an additional loss.

Unfortunately these are among the worst rules written during the 'modern' games era and even the FAQ has errors and debatable interpretations, so we can agree to disagree.
I would note however that if we read it your way I would be very reluctant to defend an ally's lone Fort, because on a tie with a 7 I risk losing 2 units, instead of 1.
 
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Ray.T
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misteralan wrote:
RayGuns wrote:
zambochm wrote:
Hi!
I only have one fort in the area and as a defender win the battle with a 7.

Do I Suffer a loss of fort?


No, if it was a tie because, "A fort is never lost in a tie, no matter what the circumstances are." (Pg.4 rules)

I have to disagree, the loss isn't because of a tie, it is because of the 7, described as an additional loss.


"A fort is never lost in a tie, no matter what the circumstances are." (Pg.4 rules)

Is pretty clear. Until there is yet an official ruling on that, we continue to play as written in the rules.

A lot of FAQ stuff is 3rd party or worse. Only a few are from the designer, and that in itself is a separate short FAQ.

misteralan wrote:

I would note however that if we read it your way I would be very reluctant to defend an ally's lone Fort, because on a tie with a 7 I risk losing 2 units, instead of 1.


Yep, you got it! whistle

I use to try and play it the way you are suggesting, but so many make me "play it by the rules as written." And that clause, "no matter what the circumstances are" is pretty darn clear as to offer no reasonable argument against, so now I just play it as written.
 
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alan beaumont
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Final Fort thought
But English is a sticky thing. I don't see the loss to a 7 as being connected to being in the tie and there is no exception offered within the explanation of rolling a 7.

I really hope someone will pimp and republish this great game so we could clear up the mess once and for all. In the meantime best wishes and we shall live and let live.
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alan beaumont
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An aside
RayGuns wrote:
I use to try and play it the way you are suggesting, but so many make me "play it by the rules as written." And that clause, "no matter what the circumstances are" is pretty darn clear as to offer no reasonable argument against, so now I just play it as written.

When dealing with these fellows run the sentence 'Naval combat and land combat follow the same rules.' (p4 column2 para2) past them, then stand away at a safe distance.

Another thought that occurs is the naval combat requirement: 'A player only has the option to fight if he has at least one naval unit in the area' p4 column2 para1), which the FAQ reverses by allowing an ally to substitute. I have a verbal clarification from Mr Wallace at the UK Games Expo 2011, that it does indeed have to be your own actual unit, but I would be interested to know what side of the coin your group came down on.
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Ray.T
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misteralan wrote:
RayGuns wrote:
I use to try and play it the way you are suggesting, but so many make me "play it by the rules as written." And that clause, "no matter what the circumstances are" is pretty darn clear as to offer no reasonable argument against, so now I just play it as written.

When dealing with these fellows run the sentence 'Naval combat and land combat follow the same rules.' (p4 column2 para2) past them, then stand away at a safe distance.


laugh

misteralan wrote:
Another thought that occurs is the naval combat requirement: 'A player only has the option to fight if he has at least one naval unit in the area' p4 column2 para1), which the FAQ reverses by allowing an ally to substitute. I have a verbal clarification from Mr Wallace at the UK Games Expo 2011, that it does indeed have to be your own actual unit, but I would be interested to know what side of the coin your group came down on.


We play it, "that it does indeed have to be your own actual unit".
 
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Ray.T
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Overall, Struggle of Empires is a fantastic game and one of my favorites. Yes, the rules are a little confusing at times, but the rules come in three different languages! So no wonder there. I heard from friends who speak and read German say that the rules in German seem to be the base that the French and English rules are translated from. I can't confirm this as I don't speak/read German, but isn't Mr. Wallace British?

The core rules are pretty standard, and as long as everyone is in agreement on how to handle the little intricacies that might come up, then all is okay.

It would be fantastic if Mr. Wallace could take a little time and make a final official FAQ using those few FAQs that are out there. Or better yet, rewrite the rules a bit? I believe Struggle of Empires is one of he best game designs and deserves the extra attention that Struggle of Empires fans/players will really appreciate. I said it already, but I will say it again, Struggle of Empires is a fantastic game!
 
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