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Days of Decision III» Forums » Rules

Subject: US Entry more rss

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Kev Ansett
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Still unsure of US entry with WIFFE/DOD
From what I can see you set up pools for all MP.
Eg France, CW, Germany etc.

You then, everytime you play an option multiply that number by 3 and this gives your chance of an entry chit.

Say Germany gives + 6, thats 18.
One definite chit + 8/10th of a chance of a second chit.

The chits can then be added to the German pool, or pushed from the German pool into the German tension pool.

You then use the values in the tension pools to determine if you can
play US options:-
1, 4, 11, 16, 20, 22, 24, 25, 26, 28, 29, 32, 33, 34, 36,
38, 40, 41, 43, 44, 46 and 50

But how does the French / Chinese / CW etc Common pools affect this?

For example - presume we have the following Common pools for the non fascists:-

France - 30 points of chits
China - 6 points
CW - 20 points
Russia - 25 points.
US - 20 points.

How would those points be applied against the US when its trying to play the options??

Personally I think it would be easier to do the following:-
Each turn work out the combined affects of the non fascists and take them away from each fascist to achieve a fascist only tension pool.

Eg. on a turn
Germany - 11
Italy - 6
Japan - 12
France 5
CW - 6

You could say Germanys pool is 11 - (5/2) -(3/2)
Which is 7- which equates to 21 chit points?

Italy would be 6 - 4 = 2 *3 = 6 chits.
Japan would be 6 - which equates to 18?

Thoughts please / explanations

Kev
 
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Grog Jones
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Using your figures:

France - 30 points of chits (what have they been doing!)
China - 6 points
CW - 20 points
US - 20 points


Russia - 25 points.

Germany - 11
Italy - 6
Japan - 12

So, US E vs Germany is
11 (Ge) + (6+12)/2 (half the other Fascists) = 20
MINUS
all US = 20
all USSR = 25
half all other democrats = (20+6+30)/2 = 28

For a total of - 53,
so a long way from war

You need to calculate each facist powers positive figure separately, but the minuses are always the same.
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Simon Nicholls
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Kev

Your assertion regarding chit picks is correct - what ever the number is, multiply by 3 and take a chit for each ten points then roll for the balance.

Everyone (except the US) has a US entry level but only MPs outside the Democrat ideology have a tension level. This is because you can't declare war against someone in your own ideology (even though you might want to). To declare war you need Entry and Tension - hence the need for tension pools only for the Soviets and the Fascists.

Separate from DoWs, US entry level determines what options the US can play. Essentially a country's level is dependent on how naughty they have been plus how naughty other countries in their ideology have been. However this is offset by how naughty countries in other ideologies have been.

Hence, if the chits are as follows Ge 20, Italy 10, Japan 30 and no one else has any chits, then Germany's entry is 20 + (10 + 30)/2 = 40 (half the value of other MPs in your ideology are added to your base value).

But if the Soviets have 30 chits the calculation becomes 20 + (10 + 30)/2 - 30 = 10 because you take away the full value of chits in the Soviet pool. The chits in the US pool (because they can also collect chits for gear ups and so on) are also taken away at full value and other Democrats are taken away at half value.

Because the US dislikes the Communists more than the Fascists, the calculation is slightly worse for them.

In your example, if calculating the entry against a Fascist, The chits against France, China and the CW take away 28, the US chits take away 20 and the Soviet chits take away 25 giving a total of -73. Presumably there are some chits in the Fascists pools.

To allow the US player to play a particular entry level, he or she needs to demonstrate that level against some or all of the target MPs (which is identified in the options list). Remember that the level will be different for different MPs in an ideology and have to be calculated separately.

It may seem complicated, but it is supposed to be. It is almost impossible for anyone to keep track of where US Entry is, meaning that there is a genuine risk of being caught by a surprise declaration.

We use a simple Excel spreadsheet to carry out the entry level calc and also to calculate the "Its War" number. I need confirmation from my playing partners that it has no problems but will upload it to the Geek if it is OK.
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Simon Nicholls
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I see Greg has reached the same point in the afternoon as me. The "oh good grief I can't be doing with any more of the idiocy of modern business - time for a break".

It's Geek Time!
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Grog Jones
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It's the wonders of a stinking cold and a day in bed. It's also the beauty of DOD that a us/soviet war can happen before it kicks off with the fascists. Maybe next game (when I play the US)
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Kev Ansett
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Ok I think I get it - although an excel spreadsheet would help :-)

Basically convert to chits.
When US wants to play a non DoD option,
Sum up the fascist (presume from tension pool),
Subtract the full commie tension pool,
Subtract the full US pool (non tension)
Subtract 1/2 remaining democrat pool
Result will give a tension value which I can then
Use to see if an option can be played

Complicated is not the word :-)

I've also started thinking about options...

From reading the rules it mentions
Only one person can play the option
To get resources - which favours the fascists
(providing zero bps are used)?

Thanks again guys - this is a lot more complicated
Than my old fifth edition / dod1

Kev
 
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Grog Jones
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Kev
it's taken us a while to get this so no surprises on the confusion:

the bottom line is that ONLY the US entry pools are used to calculate the US entry level. Ignore Tension pools. US Entry (only) is used to calculate the US entry options you can play (ahem: except the gear ups - you still need to demonstrate tension on those).

Tension pools are only used to calculate US declaration of war results.

Then, US entry becomesfor facsists only)
plus
the target entry chits (ie Ger, IT or Ja) plus (half the other fascists scum)

minus
(as you say above)
all the US entry chits plus all the russian entry pool chits
and half the total other (non-US) democrats chits.

Call me back if you want to know how to declare on the USSR, that's slightly easier if Stalin has been a bit proddy....
 
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Kev Ansett
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Ok now I really don't understand!!

So Germany US tension doesn't matter???


Give me some working examples I guess and I might get it :-)


Kev
 
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Kev Ansett
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Ok looking at this in the cold light of a new day...

For US to play gift of destroyers etc, you use only the US entry?

This will be composed of the chits generated by
The DoD options played (*3) as discussed (by the US only!!)

For the US to declare war, you only look at tension pools?

In which case it's

1. Fascist you want to declare + 1/2 other fascists
2. Minus the whole of US + Russia
3. Minus half the sum of the democrats?

And the fascist needs to be at war with a democrat.

So, if I get in before he allies with Russia, he couldn't attack me??

Kev

Kev
 
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Simon Nicholls
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ansettk wrote:
Ok looking at this in the cold light of a new day...

For US to play gift of destroyers etc, you use only the US entry?

This will be composed of the chits generated by
The DoD options played (*3) as discussed (by the US only!!)

For the US to declare war, you only look at tension pools?

In which case it's

1. Fascist you want to declare + 1/2 other fascists
2. Minus the whole of US + Russia
3. Minus half the sum of the democrats?

And the fascist needs to be at war with a democrat.

So, if I get in before he allies with Russia, he couldn't attack me??

Kev

Kev


To play USE options (as in vanilla WiFFE) you use Entry levels. A particular country's entry level is determined by the number of USE chits in each and every Entry pool. Chits are generated by the play of political options (by all MPs not just the US) and also by some on-map actions such as capture of a Chinese city by the Japanese.

To declare war, you use the US Entry level calculated in the same way plus the tension level - calculated in a similar way - and then you roll on the Its War chart with the die roll modifiers shown on page 59/60 of the DoD3 rules.

The US can declare war against any combination of Fascist or Communist providing they can roll the required number each time.
 
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Grog Jones
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Kev
I just spotted a question from earlier in the thread I dont think we answered:
"Only one person can play the option to get resources - which favours the fascists (providing zero bps are used)?"

I'm not sure what you meant, but I assume it refers to minor country economic agreements (IPO2). Any IPO can only be played once per turn by any power, but if, say, germany played IPO2 in S/O37 to secure the swedish resources, there is nothing to stop the CW playing IPO2 in N/D37 to try to break the agreement, assuming they meet the prerequisites for initiative position. Unlike DOD1, most options can be played as many times as you like (with the exception of the obvious MP events like occupying the rhineland.)

I also wasnt clear on what you meant with the last question in the previous post - "So, if I get in before he allies with Russia, he couldn't attack me??" If you mean that if Germany declares on Russia, and no other Fascists were at war with a democrat, then the US couldn't declare on Germany, then that's correct (unless the US and USSR have got a level 2 treaty in place, and then only after 6 turns of war and the US stills to meet the entry level criteria). However, it would be a really weird game where the democrats weren't at war with at least one fascist somewhere by this point - even if it's only Japan v China. I guess if Japan managed to knock China out completely, and the democrats didn't guarantee Poland so Germany got a free attack, well it might be possible.
 
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Kev Ansett
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Grog,

Lets go through these

1. To play a US entry option
Work out the US Chit value as follows:-
If its against a specific power
(say Chinese build aircraft) - JA (3)
This requires Japanese Chits value of 3.

Now if we had (example only)
Ja - 2 points of chits
UK - 4 points
US - 2 points
RU - 1 point
GE - 2 points
IT - 1 point
CH - 1 points
FR - 1 point

Section 15.10 says:-
The base US entry is calculated by adding the major powers known US entry to the value of the chits in the major powers entry pool.
Modified US entry is calculated as:-
(versus a fascist).
Target Major power + 1/2 all other fascist - US own entry , - 1/2 all other major powers.

So, for Japan - it would be
2 (JP) + (2/2) (GE) + (1/2) (IT)
-2 (US) -(4/2) (UK) - (1/2) (FR) - (1/2) (RU) - (1/2) (CH)
= -2

So the US couldnt play the option???

And the War role is done on the Tension from either Fascists or Commies as in the section below in the book..

Now a few points to check.
A) People have mentioned the full Russia value to be included...
The rules on this site (downloaded) dont say that????
B) In my game (as Ive mentioned) it will primarily be Fascists vs the rest - yes I know Ill get beaten but its what we have.

OK - Now onto IPO2 )
If I read it right (8.2 - option selection) it says
Each option canonly be chosen once per turn - eg only one player may play IPO2 this turn.

So, if the fascists kept top initiative, the commies / Democrats couldnt chose this option - that was my point.
(Although obviously they would garner bid points which eventually WOULD give them initiative).

That correct???

Thanks as always for reading my ramblings - we will be playing (yes just the two of us) the whole shebang from 1936 - starting on about 28th Dec - so I really want to get the rules 100% correct.

As ever I do thank you all for your help ))

Oh and the one I was thinking about Russia was Germany / Italy.
If they treaty France, and noone has allied with Russia, then theoretically they could go for Russia without CW/FR doing a thing??

(Easier to answer these with 2 rule books in front of me)
Oh and I have got my second folding table up now so I can have all 4 maps + the political one ))

Kev


 
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Kev Ansett
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I seem to have scared everyone off blush

Kev
 
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Grog Jones
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Kev
sorry, been busy with work (boo). Will try to get back to you with a considered response asap.
 
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Kev Ansett
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That work business - always getting in the way :-)
 
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Grog Jones
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Right Kev, that's that week almost out of the way.

So in a belated answer to your questions:


1. To play a US entry option
Work out the US Chit value as follows:-
If its against a specific power
(say Chinese build aircraft) - JA (3)
This requires Japanese Chits value of 3.

Now if we had (example only)
Ja - 2 points of chits
UK - 4 points
US - 2 points
RU - 1 point
GE - 2 points
IT - 1 point
CH - 1 points
FR - 1 point

Section 15.10 says:-
The base US entry is calculated by adding the major powers known US entry to the value of the chits in the major powers entry pool.
Modified US entry is calculated as:-
(versus a fascist).
Target Major power + 1/2 all other fascist - US own entry , - 1/2 all other major powers.


Not quite - the July 2009 rules on the ADG website for modified US entry vs fascists are:
• Versus a Fascist = Target major power’s base US entry + (1/2 x the total of all other Fascists’ base US entry) - all Communists’ base US entry totals - the USA’s base US entry - (1/2 x the total of all other Democrats’ base US entry).

So, for Japan - it would be
2 (JP) + (2/2) (GE) + (1/2) (IT)
-2 (US) -(4/2) (UK) - (1/2) (FR) - (1/1) (RU) - (1/2) (CH)
= -2.5, rounds to -3

So absolutely the US couldnt play the option. However, it is really rare for Ja entry to be that low, while US and other democrat entry is so high.


And the War role is done on the Tension from either Fascists or Commies as in the section below in the book..

The war roll cross references the modified US entry for that target power(eg the -2.5 above), versus the modified Tension for the target power. It uses the table on the WIFFE combat tables, but DOD has slightly different modifiers.

On the other points you wanted to check:

A) People have mentioned the full Russia value to be included...
The rules on this site (downloaded) dont say that????
- yup, that's what it says in the current rules on the ADG site, as of five minutes ago when I checked in a panic just in case I'd given you the wrong steer. You may be reading the line on declaring war against a Communist major power, which is significantly easier as you dont need to subtract any facsist entry from the total. The game reason for this is to (a) echo the historical western (US) mistrust of those damn commies and (b) discourage the USSR from going mental and attacking every minor in reach - not that it stops us (ahem, me) from doing just that.

B) In my game (as Ive mentioned) it will primarily be Fascists vs the rest - yes I know Ill get beaten but its what we have. I think I've mentioned before that this will create a gang up problem, but maybe if you try out one of the suggestions from the other thread to balance it out, you might get a result. Also, you could consider trying that if a democrat has already played an option that turn, the commies can only play a 0g or 0f and vice versa - that way you'll get less ability to coordinate political options

OK - Now onto IPO2 )
If I read it right (8.2 - option selection) it says
Each option canonly be chosen once per turn - eg only one player may play IPO2 this turn.

So, if the fascists kept top initiative, the commies / Democrats couldnt chose this option - that was my point.
(Although obviously they would garner bid points which eventually WOULD give them initiative).


Correct. But keep in mind that you can buy political points with BP, and you can also go into debt. So its rare that the Fascists retain top political initiative all the time.


Oh and the one I was thinking about Russia was Germany / Italy.
If they treaty France, and noone has allied with Russia, then theoretically they could go for Russia without CW/FR doing a thing??


Actually, if Ger/It go for Russia first, before war with Fr/CW, then unless either the CW or FR have got to a level 2 treaty with russia they will not have a causus bellum and so cant go to war. They could try to get a L2 treaty in place after war is declared, which would give them a causus bellum after one year (6 turns). The treaty status between Ger/It and CW/FR is academic, as with a causus bellum a democrat (other than the USA) can always declare war against a non-democratic power. However, it's a sloppy western democrat who wont guarantee Poland to stop the germans doing that.

Hope that answers the questions - if something comes up during your play pop it on line.

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Kev Ansett
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Ahh so I was almost right - bar the printed rules being wrong :-)

That's fine...

I will discuss the 0f option with my mate, but to be honest don't mind

Thanks again Grog :-))
 
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