Tim Burris
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Can a War Sun blow up a system and sit there indefinitely pooping out destroyers with the Muaat ability?? This seems ridiculous if true.
 
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Fedor Syagin
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Bizud wrote:
Can a War Sun blow up a system and sit there indefinitely pooping out destroyers with the Muaat ability?? This seems ridiculous if true.

I don't see anything in rules that would point to this being illegal.
I am not sure I understand "ridiculous" part of it? This is not in any way powerful or good move. If you best strategy is actually hiding for the rest of the game most powerful ship you have and not moving it again just so you can produce Destroyers? It's not doing it very fast and you need to be insanely lucky for the spot being good one (on most of the maps there is 2-3 spots that can be legally turned into supernova this way.)

Saar sitting in Asteroid Field at least make some sense strategy wise - you trying to protect your otherwise defenseless unit.
 
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Tim Burris
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It's not a good move, the player playing Muaat seemed to be playing purely for the purposes of wreaking the most havoc (hence picking Muaat and researching Nova Seed on the 2nd or 3rd turn) and is known for "trolling" the person whose home system he was doing all of this right next door to. The trolled player (who owns the copy of the game we were using) says that it was the first TI game he's ever seen ruined, that he's not playing again any time soon AND that if this is allowed then all of the Embers of Muaat stuff is going to mysteriously disappear from his copy...but in this game if you want to ruin somebody else's chance to win by sacrificing your own, you can; there are plenty of ways to do it other than this.

By the end we all agreed that we should have played something else with our six hours instead. I also caught a little flack for tentatively agreeing with the Muaat player and saying we should play rules-as-written because I couldn't find anything illegal about it either.

I was mostly just wondering if we had missed a rule because it seems absurd thematically that ships can sit there living in a Supernova that they could never move back into if they ever left.
 
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JJ Belyeu
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Bizud wrote:
It's not a good move, the player playing Muaat seemed to be playing purely for the purposes of wreaking the most havoc (hence picking Muaat and researching Nova Seed on the 2nd or 3rd turn) and is known for "trolling" the person whose home system he was doing all of this right next door to. The trolled player (who owns the copy of the game we were using) says that it was the first TI game he's ever seen ruined, that he's not playing again any time soon AND that if this is allowed then all of the Embers of Muaat stuff is going to mysteriously disappear from his copy...but in this game if you want to ruin somebody else's chance to win by sacrificing your own, you can; there are plenty of ways to do it other than this.

By the end we all agreed that we should have played something else with our six hours instead. I also caught a little flack for tentatively agreeing with the Muaat player and saying we should play rules-as-written because I couldn't find anything illegal about it either.

I was mostly just wondering if we had missed a rule because it seems absurd thematically that ships can sit there living in a Supernova that they could never move back into if they ever left.


The rules also only state the ships can STAY there, not that more can move into or be produced there. I would have ruled against this but I tend to be wrong in these situations
 
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Ian Madsen
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I want to say that you are never allowed to activate a supernova system, which would prevent this from happening, but I need to find confirmation in the rules first.
 
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Arcadious wrote:
I want to say that you are never allowed to activate a supernova system, which would prevent this from happening, but I need to find confirmation in the rules first.

You are correct that you cannot activate a Supernova system, but to use the Muaat ability to spawn a Destroyer, you don't need to activate the system.

That said, I could definitely agree with the interpretation of "no new ships allowed to be produced"
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Arcadious wrote:
I want to say that you are never allowed to activate a supernova system, which would prevent this from happening, but I need to find confirmation in the rules first.

You are correct that you cannot activate a Supernova system, but to use the Muaat ability to spawn a Destroyer, you don't need to activate the system.

That said, I could definitely agree with the interpretation of "no new ships allowed to be produced"
I don't have my copy in front of me, what's the text of the spawn ability?

Regardless of the legality, the best solution is not play with trolls.
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Arcadious wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
[q="Arcadious"]I want to say that you are never allowed to activate a supernova system, which would prevent this from happening, but I need to find confirmation in the rules first.

You are correct that you cannot activate a Supernova system, but to use the Muaat ability to spawn a Destroyer, you don't need to activate the system.

That said, I could definitely agree with the interpretation of "no new ships allowed to be produced"
I don't have my copy in front of me, what's the text of the spawn ability?

"As an Action, you may spend one Command Counter from your Strategy Allocation Area to place 2 free Fighters or 1 free Destroyer in any one System containing one of your War Suns or Space Docks."

It takes an action, but it doesn't require activating the system

Quote:
Regardless of the legality, the best solution is not play with trolls.

I agree (although I can see some legitimate players doing this to try and build up a small force before moving their War Sun out back into the fray).
 
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Fedor Syagin
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sigmazero13 wrote:

I agree (although I can see some legitimate players doing this to try and build up a small force before moving their War Sun out back into the fray).


If they managed to actually benefit from them - I would say best of luck.
This is pretty expensive tech and depending on how your map is build finding legal spot might be not easy (one more thing to remember if you want to protect yourself - have red system close to key system - part of map building process!)
So after you spend all this time researching, finding good system actually getting warsun there, blowing it up and amasing fleet (let's say you had tons of activation token and you spend hole turn how many ships you can get there 3-4? you have more than 3-4 activation token left? and have fleet supply to keep warsun and everything in it ----
this is all just to prepare for this.
After that all this had to lead to something that actually is useful So not likely to happen anytime soon

But trolls - trolls can ruin anything
 
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Long games with direct conflict are ripe for abuse by trolls, so it's to be expected once in a while. As I foresee viable strategic options utilizing this method, I personally will refrain from patching it with house rules, but I'd welcome an official ruling that prevented it.
 
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Arandor .
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sigmazero13 wrote:
That said, I could definitely agree with the interpretation of "no new ships allowed to be produced"


Except, of course, that the Muaat's ability is not "produce". Which is like a keyword in TI3; the word "produce" means something. Usually involving a Space Dock.

This ability places a ship.

I say: go ahead and let him produce 8 Destroyers (he can't produce more than that... as there aren't any more) plus the fleet support for it (9, including the War Sun). And then?
 
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Arandor wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
That said, I could definitely agree with the interpretation of "no new ships allowed to be produced"


Except, of course, that the Muaat's ability is not "produce". Which is like a keyword in TI3; the word "produce" means something. Usually involving a Space Dock.

This ability places a ship.

I used the term lightly, I didn't mean to imply that it was the same thing as building one during the production step

I probably should have just used the phrase "spawn"
 
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Ian Madsen
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Arandor wrote:
I say: go ahead and let him produce 8 Destroyers (he can't produce more than that... as there aren't any more) plus the fleet support for it (9, including the War Sun). And then?

That wasn't what the troll was doing.
 
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Arandor .
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Arcadious wrote:
That wasn't what the troll was doing.


I don't know if it was a troll, but that was exactly what he was doing.

Except replace the word "produce" with the word "place".

He was sitting nice and dandy with a War Sun within a newly created supernova, perhaps some Fighter support left over, and was popping out Destroyers.

Yeah, that newly created Supernova was right next to someone's Home System.

So?

Get Deep Space Cannon, spawn 6 PDS units around the Supernova, and every time a Destroyer comes out, shoot his ass 6 times.

Add Scientists (+1 to hit for PDS), Magen Defense Grid (+1 to hit for PDS), Mercenaries / Flagships that function like PDS, and/or Graviton Laser System (for re-roll PDS) to taste.

He spends 8 turns and 8 CC to place 8 Destroyers, finally comes flying out and gets blown to space dust.

Once it's your turn again, you activate the system again, shoot another 6 times to mop up any surviving Destroyers, and continue where you were.

Repeat.

His loss: 8-9 CC.

Your loss: 1 CC.

Good luck with that.
 
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Simon Kamber
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Arandor wrote:
His loss: 8-9 CC.

Your loss: 1 CC, 12 resources worth of PDS cannons, 20 resources worth of tech, approximately 5 activations to build and spread those PDS cannons and the opportunity cost of all the other things you could have been doing in that time.


Fixed that for you...

I agree that building destroyers with the Muaat ability is not an effective strategy, but 'just dedicate all of your resources to preventing it' is not a good answer either.
 
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Arandor wrote:
Arcadious wrote:
That wasn't what the troll was doing.


I don't know if it was a troll, but that was exactly what he was doing.

It doesn't sound like he was amassing a single fleet, but rather attacking the home system every round with only 1 or 2 destroyers.
 
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Fedor Syagin
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Arcadious wrote:
Arandor wrote:
Arcadious wrote:
That wasn't what the troll was doing.


I don't know if it was a troll, but that was exactly what he was doing.

It doesn't sound like he was amassing a single fleet, but rather attacking the home system every round with only 1 or 2 destroyers.
\
How he can ever attack same system more than once? Yes there is warfare 1 and there is one action card in deck to remove counter - but still. Every turn?
And if someone attacking me every round with one destroyer and that's scary - then I am doing something wrong.
 
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garfielder wrote:
Arcadious wrote:
Arandor wrote:
Arcadious wrote:
That wasn't what the troll was doing.


I don't know if it was a troll, but that was exactly what he was doing.

It doesn't sound like he was amassing a single fleet, but rather attacking the home system every round with only 1 or 2 destroyers.
\
How he can ever attack same system more than once? Yes there is warfare 1 and there is one action card in deck to remove counter - but still. Every round?

Every round is easy, since all command counters are cleared every round.

Quote:
And if someone attacking me every turn with one destroyer and that's scary - then I am doing something wrong.

I don't think it's a matter of them destroying lots of stuff; it can be just as harmful to have them just sit there and blockade your space dock, because then no more ships can be built. Since the homeworld tends to be where a lot of the big fleets are built, having a single destroyer there CAN be quite a pain in the neck if you leave your home system open.


That being said, I don't think it's a HUGE issue if playing against someone who is using the tactic as part of the plan to win. But having a player throw a game and just use their actions to harass another player make the game less enjoyable for everyone there.
 
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garfielder wrote:
Arcadious wrote:
Arandor wrote:
Arcadious wrote:
That wasn't what the troll was doing.


I don't know if it was a troll, but that was exactly what he was doing.

It doesn't sound like he was amassing a single fleet, but rather attacking the home system every round with only 1 or 2 destroyers.
\
How he can ever attack same system more than once? Yes there is warfare 1 and there is one action card in deck to remove counter - but still. Every round?
And if someone attacking me every turn with one destroyer and that's scary - then I am doing something wrong.
By round I mean one complete cycle through the Strategy, Action, and Status Phases.
 
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Fedor Syagin
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Arcadious wrote:
]By round I mean one complete cycle through the Strategy, Action, and Status Phases.

And you are indeed correct!
I am mixing my terminology.
But still I don't understand the horror. Amassing a fleet and being constant danger - i get. Attacking every round - not really.
How may destroyers in each attack? 2-3?
Once you have fleet in home system that can take potential threat of warsun and 2-3 destroyers (And you had that threat even before nova seed was used since warsun already was next to your home system) - then at that point this fleet is stuck in home system - but you don't really have to do anything else.

Most of the game I played if by last 2-3 rounds you don't have anything in your home for long time - you probably not actually going for win anyway or don't care about people using you as one of the secret objective target that involve home system.

1 destroyer blocking home system is mighty. Even 2-3 is very small invading fleet.

I would be annoyed - but again to replicate it you need to have very specific set of circumstances one of them played being troll. (without it - this is just way too unlikely.)
So lets say we take this possibility out of the game - player being troll can still ruing any game of ti3.

Still I gotta ask - has anyone cared to actually ask about this on FFG website yet and get official ruling?
 
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garfielder wrote:
Still I gotta ask - has anyone cared to actually ask about this on FFG website yet and get official ruling?

blush

I went ahead and sent in the following question:
Quote:
This question involves both expansions. After a Muaat War Sun has utilized their Nova Seed racial technology to turn a system into a Supernova, may the Muaat use their racial ability to spawn fighters and destroyers inside the Supernova before moving the War Sun out of the Supernova?
 
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Arandor .
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Dulkal wrote:
Fixed that for you...

I agree that building destroyers with the Muaat ability is not an effective strategy, but 'just dedicate all of your resources to preventing it' is not a good answer either.


Where did I say "dedicate all your resources to preventing it?"

If you want AN answer, this is one.

1. Building PDS in your Home System is something many people already do anyway, as they give a good defense.

2. Teching for Deep Space Cannon is something many people already do anyway, as half the races start with the prerequisite already anyway (and many others will tech for it), DSC is a perfectly OK tech, and on the pathway to e.g. War Suns, Magen Defense Grid, Graviton Laser System, Light/Wave Deflectors, and Duranium Armor.

3. I never said you needed to do ALL this.

- If he is flying INTO your Home System, DSC isn't even needed.
- All the extras (Scientists, Magen Defense Grid, Gravition Laser System, etc.) is icing on the cake. Just to make absolutely sure you do not just make this little ploy of little value, but totally and utterly obliterate the thought from his very mind forever.

You can take it, if you want. No need to.

Taking just 2 PDS (which makes perfect sense) already prevents ~2 Destroyers just fine. You shoot once for free, another time when you build in your HS. That's 2x2 shots with 50% chance each.

Taking 4 PDS takes care of 3-4. Taking 6 PDS takes care of 5-6.

That's without any boosts whatsoever. Doing something you already do anyway.

The DSC is just if he starts to annoy adjacent systems too. So that no matter where he tries to go, he gets blasted.

So: what opportunity cost? You're defending your HS from a threat, something you always do anyway.
 
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Brian Petersen
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I was about to make a statement about how bad Integrated Economy would be in conjunction with this.

Then I realized that could only be used the round the Supernova is created.

After that, you would have to play Signal Jamming on yourself.
 
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I received a reply from FFG on this question:
Corey Konieczka wrote:
Yes, the Muaat may spawn fighters in this system if a War Sun is present.

I hope this answers your question!
-Corey Konieczka
VP of R&D
Fantasy Flight Games

Ian Andrews Madsen wrote:
Rule Question:
This question involves both expansions. After a Muaat War Sun has utilized their Nova Seed racial technology to turn a system into a Supernova, may the Muaat use their racial ability to spawn fighters and destroyers inside the Supernova before moving the War Sun out of the Supernova?
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Anders Kernel
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As far as I see it,

1. Congratulations on the ingeniuty of the player seeing this, as I believe it is a viable, if somewhat desperate, strategy. If used to force the leading player to defend themselves more, all the more power to the Muaat player. If it is used to gain a VP, thumbs up!

2. If the player uses it to troll another player for whatever reason, well then at least the trolling lead to us knowing it is a viable strategy. Twilight have several ways you can let your frustrations out on other players, most of them destructive for your own and your opponents game. I find that it isn't a game suitable for all players, especially those who hold a grudge against others. So, dont play with him again, or explain why your group believes it is a bad idea.

Cheerio,
ST
 
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