I Q
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Cultists, for example, give you +3 cards when you trash this card.

So is it always the case that if Player A has Cultists and Cultists are trashed for any reason, Player A draws +3 cards?

Or are there cases (maybe attack cards?) where Player B trashes Player A's cultists? If so, does player B get +3 cards? Does Player A still get +3 cards instead? Does no one get +3 cards?

Does Possession provide the only way around this (where Player B "possesses " Player A and trashes Player A's Cultists somehow) and what happens there, and is that the only time something like that happens?
 
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David Goldfarb
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If player B trashes player A's Cultist, player A gets to draw three cards. Possession isn't an exception to this: on a Possession turn, it's player A who is trashing them, even though player B is forcing him to.
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Chris Linneman
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David Goldfarb wrote:
If player B trashes player A's Cultist, player A gets to draw three cards. Possession isn't an exception to this: on a Possession turn, it's player A who is trashing them, even though player B is forcing him to.


I believe there is never a case where a card tells you to trash another player's card. It always tells the other player to do so. So there really is no difference between "when card is trashed" and "when you trash this card."
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Nate S
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QBert80 wrote:
David Goldfarb wrote:
If player B trashes player A's Cultist, player A gets to draw three cards. Possession isn't an exception to this: on a Possession turn, it's player A who is trashing them, even though player B is forcing him to.


I believe there is never a case where a card tells you to trash another player's card. It always tells the other player to do so. So there really is no difference between "when card is trashed" and "when you trash this card."

This is correct.
 
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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David Goldfarb wrote:
If player B trashes player A's Cultist, player A gets to draw three cards. Possession isn't an exception to this: on a Possession turn, it's player A who is trashing them, even though player B is forcing him to.


Although Possession is an exception to whether the card ends up in the Trash after it is trashed.
 
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Matt E
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onigame wrote:
David Goldfarb wrote:
If player B trashes player A's Cultist, player A gets to draw three cards. Possession isn't an exception to this: on a Possession turn, it's player A who is trashing them, even though player B is forcing him to.


Although Possession is an exception to whether the card ends up in the Trash after it is trashed.


So are Thief, Noble Brigand, Fortress, etc. Cards you trash while possessed still visit the trash pile before being set aside.
 
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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LastFootnote wrote:
onigame wrote:
David Goldfarb wrote:
If player B trashes player A's Cultist, player A gets to draw three cards. Possession isn't an exception to this: on a Possession turn, it's player A who is trashing them, even though player B is forcing him to.


Although Possession is an exception to whether the card ends up in the Trash after it is trashed.


So are Thief, Noble Brigand, Fortress, etc. Cards you trash while possessed still visit the trash pile before being set aside.


I don't think the rules are conclusive on this point. However, the discussion is mostly academic as I doubt there's a case (in the published cards) where it actually matters whether a card has visited the Trash.

For Thief and Noble Brigand it's pretty clear that the trashed cards visit the Trash, since the trashing sentence is separate from the gaining sentence. For one-sentence "when trash" effects like Fortress and Possession this is not as clear; it's quite possible the card doesn't actually visit the Trash pile.

Compare with "Gain" location-changing effects, such as Bureaucrat. When you gain the Silver, does the Silver momentarily visit your discard pile before your deck? Here the rules are pretty clear, they say "unless the card says specifically to put it elsewhere," so no, it doesn't visit the discard pile. The Dark Ages rules mention regarding "when you trash" effects that "These abilities happen directly after the card is put into the trash", so in the case of Fortress, at least, it's implied that the card visits the Trash.

However, Possession doesn't use a "when he trashes" wording -- it says "and cards of his that are trashed". The rulebook clarifies this by saying "whenever one of that player's cards is trashed, set it aside" and also "This counts as the card being trashed". The issue of whether the card actually was ever in the Trash isn't addressed.

Regardless, my general point was that the effects of Possession's "trash" clause are a rather special mechanism; the fact that there are other special mechanisms that are similar in some ways doesn't detract from my original point.
 
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Chris Schumann
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onigame wrote:
The Dark Ages rules mention regarding "when you trash" effects that "These abilities happen directly after the card is put into the trash", so in the case of Fortress, at least, it's implied that the card visits the Trash.
And the notes on Fortress in the rules states:
Quote:
If this is trashed, you take it from the trash and put it into your
hand.
so it explicitly does visit the trash.
 
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Adam Kazimierczak
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Maybe the trash should have a "Just Visiting" section around it like the jail space in Monopoly.

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Pawel Pawlak
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onigame wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
onigame wrote:
David Goldfarb wrote:
If player B trashes player A's Cultist, player A gets to draw three cards. Possession isn't an exception to this: on a Possession turn, it's player A who is trashing them, even though player B is forcing him to.


Although Possession is an exception to whether the card ends up in the Trash after it is trashed.


So are Thief, Noble Brigand, Fortress, etc. Cards you trash while possessed still visit the trash pile before being set aside.


I don't think the rules are conclusive on this point. However, the discussion is mostly academic as I doubt there's a case (in the published cards) where it actually matters whether a card has visited the Trash.

For Thief and Noble Brigand it's pretty clear that the trashed cards visit the Trash, since the trashing sentence is separate from the gaining sentence. For one-sentence "when trash" effects like Fortress and Possession this is not as clear; it's quite possible the card doesn't actually visit the Trash pile.

Cards trashed on possessed turn actually visit the trash: Re: Trashing Band of Misfits (as Fortress) clarification needed

And Fortress trashed on possessed turn might or might not return to the possessed player's hand: Re: Trashing Band of Misfits (as Fortress) clarification needed
 
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Nick Knutsen
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Since Possession's ability only kicks in when a card is trashed, the card has to be trashed! The definition of a card being trashed, is that that card is moved to trash. So yes, the cards do visit trash.
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Robert Crawford
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particle_man wrote:
Cultists, for example, give you +3 cards when you trash this card.

So is it always the case that if Player A has Cultists and Cultists are trashed for any reason, Player A draws +3 cards?

Or are there cases (maybe attack cards?) where Player B trashes Player A's cultists? If so, does player B get +3 cards? Does Player A still get +3 cards instead? Does no one get +3 cards?

Does Possession provide the only way around this (where Player B "possesses " Player A and trashes Player A's Cultists somehow) and what happens there, and is that the only time something like that happens?


Note that player A can NEVER trash any of player B's cards. If player A plays a Saboteur, Knight, Swindler, Thief, Noble Brigand, whatever, it is still player B who trashes his own card, not player A who trashes it. No card says "you trash his card", they all say "he trashes his card."
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Pawel Pawlak
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GendoIkari_82 wrote:
Note that player A can NEVER trash any of player B's cards. If player A plays a Saboteur, Knight, Swindler, Thief, Noble Brigand, whatever, it is still player B who trashes his own card, not player A who trashes it. No card says "you trash his card", they all say "he trashes his card."

Well, maybe Guilds will have something that trashes cards of other players? It would be possible to steal a Fortress from them this way
 
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Michael Brandt
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m_knox wrote:
GendoIkari_82 wrote:
Note that player A can NEVER trash any of player B's cards. If player A plays a Saboteur, Knight, Swindler, Thief, Noble Brigand, whatever, it is still player B who trashes his own card, not player A who trashes it. No card says "you trash his card", they all say "he trashes his card."

Well, maybe Guilds will have something that trashes cards of other players? It would be possible to steal a Fortress from them this way


I'll bet you $20 it doesn't
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