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Subject: Can allies fight against each other via 3rd allied party? rss

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Christoph Yasutake
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Here is the scenario:

HRE as allied with France, and the Ottomans.
The Ottomans and France are at war.

They both SD troops into the HRE.

If the French attack the Otts in a space with HRE troops, do the HRE assist their ally (the Ottomans) against the French?

9.2 would argue so:

"-If a stack of land units from two major powers is attacked, they combine their units and army leaders into one defensive force."

...

"However, as described above, all allied units will add to the defense of a space even if only one of the defending powers is at war with the attacker."

Is this correct?
 
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Michael Kiefte
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Yes, this is correct.

EDIT: I stand corrected. See below. The attack cannot take place because it would occur on a HRE space. If it occurred on an Ottoman space, it would.
 
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Mark Maginity
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No, this is not correct, assuming you are describing a situation where France attacks the Ottomans by moving French units into an HRE space containing both Ottoman units and HRE units. From page 17 of the Rule Book:

Quote:
• Formations may not move into a space containing land units from another power unless the space satisfies one of these conditions:
◊ all units in the space are allies of the active power (and this is not a fortified space where one ally has another ally under siege);
◊ all units in the space are enemies of the active power (and this is not a fortified space where one enemy has another enemy under siege);
◊ this is a space controlled by an enemy power and all units in the space are either from that enemy power or allied to them. When resolving this movement, treat the units already in the space as “enemy units” for all purposes. Adjacent units from a power with units in the space are also considered as enemy units and may intercept into the space if desired;
◊ this is a fortified space under siege where either: (a) all units inside the fortification are allied to the active power and all besieging units are enemies of the active power, or (b) all units inside the fortification are enemies of the active power and all besieging units are allied to the active power.


The French move into the space containing Ottoman and HRE units does not satisfy any of the four conditions and hence is not legal. However there are other weirdnesses here:

1. If France and the Ottomans are allies, and the HRE and the Ottomans are allies, but France and the HRE are at war, then if French units move into an HRE space with Ottoman and HRE units, Ottoman and the HRE will both fight against France even though France is allied to the Ottoman. The rules to me are unclear about what happens if France moves into an HRE space that contains only Ottoman units. I would say the Ottoman still defends the space against the French units as the "price" of being allowed to use HRE spaces. The situation gets even weirder if Ottoman units move into an HRE space adjacent to a French space with French units. Do the French get to intercept? I've been agonizing over these situations ever since Here I Stand.

2. The situation you originally described would appear to permit French and Ottoman units to spring deploy into the same HRE space! The rules for spring deployment say nothing about the presence of enemy units, and the restrictions placed upon Move actions don't necessarily apply to Spring Deployment.
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Zack S.
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mmaginity2 wrote:
The rules to me are unclear about what happens if France moves into an HRE space that contains only Ottoman units. I would say the Ottoman still defends the space against the French units as the "price" of being allowed to use HRE spaces.

In the original post France and Ottoman are at war, so they'd fight (covered by bullet 2). If they were two allies and the move was into an enemy space, the ally that was already there would be treated as an enemy.

Quote:
The situation gets even weirder if Ottoman units move into an HRE space adjacent to a French space with French units. Do the French get to intercept?

The French can intercept into an empty space (allied, owned, or at war with France), and reading the rules it seems to indicate they can intercept into a space with HRE units (even though the HRE units are not actually under attack). This seems to make the original move illegal though, so I'm not really sure what happens then.
 
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Christoph Yasutake
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Here is the actual scenario:

France owns Venice.

HRE is allied with Otts and France
Otts and France are at war.
HRE SD'd troops to Trieste
France SD'd troops to Szigetvar.

Otts move to siege Venice

France spends 3 CP to move troops from Szigetvar to Graz, Trieste, and then Venice.

Can the Otts intercept into Trieste? 13.2 seems to say yes:
• Formations moving into a space that already contains land units
may only be intercepted if the intercepting units belong to the
same power as the units in the destination space, or to a power
allied to the units in the destination space. Such an interception
is not allowed if there are units under siege (from any power)
in that space at the start of the active formation’s move.
• Units may not intercept into a space controlled by another power
unless the power controlling the space is either an enemy or an
ally of the intercepting units.

Then, does a battle occur? does it prevent the French from moving into Trieste? Does the game explode?
 
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Philip Thomas
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That is just a straightforward France vs HRE+Otts battle. Just as if the Otts had been in the space all along. No explosions necessary (except as standard in 16th century battles)
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Steven
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I think France can enter the space, because Trieste only contains HRE units when it is declaring the destination space (Step 2 of the Land Movement procedure).

The Ottomans can intercept, based on the last two bullets of 13.3 which you quoted.

I may be wrong, but I think if the intercept is successful you will treat the HRE as if they are at war with France (just for this battle)


Nope, see below!

EDIT: Philip beat me to the punch.

EDIT2: I was wrong, see below!
 
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Justin Jeffers
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Hello, French player in question here. There seems to be a small discrepancy in rule sources here, as my rulebook has a phrase in parentheses that states that the power on the intercepting space must ALSO be at war with the power being intercepted, or the interception cannot happen in the first place.

I hope the mods will allow this picture of one section of the rulebook so anyone can see clearly what I am seeing.



In case the image is removed, the full text of that section is this (my bolding):

Formations moving into a space that already contains land units may only be intercepted if the intercepting units belong to the same power as the units in the destination space, or to a power allied to the units in the destination space (if those units in the space are from a power that is also an enemy of the active power). Such an interception is not allowed if there are units under siege (from any power) in that space at the start of the active formation's move.

To me it is clear that Ottomans cannot perform the interception, and if they did I think it should have implications for the state of my alliance with the HRE, since it does not make sense for him to fight one of us and not the other if I am merely moving through the space and Ottoman intercepts me. I understand if I am the aggressor on a space containing both of their armies, but if I am the one intercepted...you see where I'm going with this.
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Mark Maginity
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I'll be darned. I was going off the ever so slightly out-of-date online copy of the rules, but you're right, the version of the rules actually printed and distributed with the game includes that additional clarification. I guess that clears some things up!
 
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Steven
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Wow, no kidding Mark, I have a slightly out of date PDF too. I will edit my previous post as well.

Thank you Justin, I think that clarifies everything. You are right that the Ottoman cannot intercept into a space with units friendly to both sides!

EDIT:

As a side-note: I double checked GMT's website. Apparently the copy of the final VQ rulebook on their site, in the living rules section, does not contain that extra parathesized restriction that Justin quoted.

Weird?
 
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Joel K
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I've known for several months that the PDFs on the Living Rules page don't match the printed versions due to some late modifications, but even my PDF rulebook (which is newer than the online one by about 3 weeks) doesn't have this clarifying text.

Note to Mr Jeffers: you can avoid the shambles that is Geekmod by uploading images to your User Gallery. They'll be available instantly and can't be rejected by modders.
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Philip Thomas
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We don't actually have a final answer to this question yet (different rulebooks say different things, including supposedly definitive rulebooks)...
 
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Ed Beach
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The rulebook on the GMT site is out of date. The extra text should be there.

I'm issuing updated FAQ and Errata documents this weekend. Once the community has gotten a quick look at them (to make sure I didn't make any obvious errors), I'll be turning them into GMT to get Living Rules updates done. Then we'll finally have a fully complete rulebook online.
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