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Carcassonne: The River» Forums » Rules

Subject: Do river tiles have to connect river-to-river? rss

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Christopher
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I know this goes against the spirit of the River expansion, but can river tiles be placed so that the field sides of the tiles connect to other field sides (see image)? That is, could tile placement create several segments of parallel rivers? When placing other kinds of tiles like roads or cities, there is nothing preventing this kind of placement. Just because you draw a road tile doesn't mean that you have to place this tile to connect to an already placed road tile; creation of a new road is allowed, as long as placement is otherwise legal. Again, I know this goes against the spirit of creating a river, but this kind of parallel river placement does not seem to be barred by the rules, does it?


(Image modified from BGG user paperfred)
 
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Poland
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River tiles must be connected.

In your example you'll create U-turn which is banned by rules!
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Christopher
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Thanks for your quick response. It's true that immediate u-turns are not allowed, and if we want to connect all segments of the river into a single river, an immediate u-turn will probably be necessary (unless we can devise some kind of river that goes around the spring to the left?) But the placement I've shown in the image seems to be legal, as there is no u-turn (since the segments are not connected into a single river). I know this is a bizarre way to play but I think the rules do allow this kind of placement.

(The image I've chosen is not the best example because it does introduce the possibility of forbidden u-turns.)
 
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Redford
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The rules that come with The River say that each piece must continue the river (i.e. connect by water). You cannot connect field edges as shown in your example.
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Christopher
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Okay, thanks. I just have the basic set that includes the river expansion and the scanty rules on placement.
 
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Well, maybe it is good idea to try this as a home rule.
But - in my opinion - it makes more problems.
What are you going with tiles which are not connect to rest of river?
Are you accept cut-river?

Original rules force players to make one river (or river with tributary if you use River I and River II).

Please look at NEW Completely Annotated Rules http://www.mediafire.com/view/?6f4vt1pnk07fma5
there is almost all about Carcassonne ;)
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Christopher
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It seems that the creation of a single river (connecting river segments to river segments) is understood but not explicit in the rules, with language like "once the river is completed." I didn't find anything that specifically states that river segments on new tiles must connect to river segments on already placed tiles. In this way, the river is unlike the placement of cities, roads, fields, etc. We will still create a single river in our games when we play, but I can't find this in the rules. (I don't however, have the original River rules, only the basic game with River expansion, and the expanded annotated rules.) Thanks everyone for the comments.
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Yours Truly,
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Raleigh
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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Quote:
When placing other kinds of tiles like roads or cities, there is nothing preventing this kind of placement. Just because you draw a road tile doesn't mean that you have to place this tile to connect to an already placed road tile; creation of a new road is allowed, as long as placement is otherwise legal.


But, one thing to keep in mind is that at the beginning of the game there are only 12 river tiles but MANY road tiles (probably ~4 X as many as river). Placing like you suggest with river will create many holes in the landscape very early due to impossibility of compatible tile placement, but doing that with a road tile won't cause that problem, since there are so many road tiles available.

I don't know if some versions were more explicit but I've always played that all the river tiles are played first, connecting to each other (river to river), and then you start the other tiles.
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Devin
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Hate to be a stickler, but this isn't entirely correct. You don't always use ALL the river tiles. You start with one end of the river as the first tile and then you flip the rest face down and draw blindly one by one until the other end is drawn. You then discard the remaining unplaced river tiles from the game and continue with the regular tiles as usual. In this way it is possible that only 2 river tiles are ever used (creating a really really small river).

As to the main topic, the rules don't specifically state that you can't place river tiles grass-to-grass, but they sure imply it pretty strongly. The basic concept of the river combined with the fact that you have 2 river end pieces and no U-turns allowed makes it about as clear as possible without being explicit that they are to be placed river to river only. Also, I'm all for rule variations in games, but as already discussed, the game would most likely turn out worse this way.

Unfortunately many games have a habit of slipping by play testing and editing without these useful little clarifications ever being added. I am guessing that when most game makers get to the stage of revising the manual, they take all sorts of feedback suggestion and in an effort to cut down on massive manuals, they make the difficult decision of what clarifications are needed and which ones can be reasonably assumed without being stated explicitly. As the player this can drive you crazy and wonder why the hell they didn't just make that one important rule more damn clear.

I honestly think that in some cases they stubbornly refuse to make clear what they believe is obvious enough in their own head, but for the most part they are aiming to cut down on words. I often wish I could rewrite the manuals to many games since I know I could make them significantly more clear. Most rule books lack great technical writing and rely more on diagrams and examples of actions or turns to make the rules clearer. These methods are useful, but it is sloppy manual design if the rule book alone does not make obvious exactly how the game is to be played.

Hhhhmmmm, I wonder if you can get a job writing game manuals and how you would go about doing this.
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Tim Wright
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Maybe things have been clarified more recently, because the rules in the Rio Grande base game I've got, with free River expansion, say:
Quote:
Place these tiles so that the river on each connects to the river on the previous tile.

Also:
Quote:
When the 10 river tiles have been played, the next player plays the lake and then play continues with the normal tiles.
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audiomeme wrote:
Maybe things have been clarified more recently, because the rules in the Rio Grande base game I've got, with free River expansion, say:
Quote:
Place these tiles so that the river on each connects to the river on the previous tile.

Also:
Quote:
When the 10 river tiles have been played, the next player plays the lake and then play continues with the normal tiles.


I've never played it differently and I'm not sure where "D P" got his info from. I'm sure its some rules version out there that has been deprecated at some point.
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Yours Truly,
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Raleigh
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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markgravitygood wrote:


I've never played it differently and I'm not sure where "D P" got his info from. I'm sure its some rules version out there that has been deprecated at some point.


Not even sure it's ever been an official rule somewhere, but it's a popular variant that's played a lot. I like it b/c it provides a river of variable length, which adds to game re-playability and diversity.

A similar variant is using River I AND River II, and starting with the springs back-to-back. Remove one lake but put all the other river tiles in the bag. You'll get 2 rivers of different lengths. Or I suppose you could just put all the non-spring tiles in the bag and draw them until you've drawn both lakes, and end up with likely some unused river tiles.

Whatever you find makes for the most fun game!
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Jared
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It would never even occur to me to attempt the placement in the first post, and trying to justify it seems like trying to lawyer your way through a loophole.

The first tile of the river is called the "spring", that's where the water comes from. The water keeps flowing as you add to the river, so unless there is another spring there shouldn't ever be a river tile placed that doesn't connect to the original spring's water source--unless you have the new Carcassonne expansion The Dry Riverbed.
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Christopher
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Interestingly enough, the last time I taught this game, the question I posted here came up on its own. I guess other people I play with think the same way I do (or at least wonder about possibilities the same way I do.) No one was trying to bend the rules or break the game, just trying to figure it out.

Thanks Tim W for quoting the River rules. My older version of the base game states merely: "These [River] tiles are played and followers may be played as in the normal game..." So it's nice to know this has really been clarified in newer versions of the game.
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