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Subject: Jol-Nar technological ability rss

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Cristian Lazarescu
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When executing the secondary option of the Technology strategy, you may execute both the primary and secondary abilities.

There's this implication that in order to execute the secondary ability of the Tech SC, you NEED 8 (or 6) resource points. If you don't have the necesary resources, then you cannot benefit from this special ability - is this correct?

Just to make things clearer: another player uses Tech II, at which point the Jol-nar player has only 5 resources available. Can the latter still use the tech ability, effectively getting for free a tech that he wouldn't be able to buy otherwise?
Yes, I know, the Jol-Nar can choose to not pay this price, but it makes sense he should have those resources available in order to have said option available. If the Jol-Nar doesn't have these resources, then he can't activate its racial tech ability, period.

Sorry for the opening a new thread, but while searching the forum for an answer to this question, I haven't found a precise answer to it.
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Magic Octopus
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The Jol-Nar do not need any resources to execute the secondary. They are allowed to execute the secondary purely to receive a free tech (it only costs them the Command Counter that is needed for the secondary).

If they so wish, they can buy another Technology Advance for the price of 8 resources (minus possible discounts).
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Cristian Lazarescu
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Not a clear answer. Let me put it this way: if the Jol-Nar have 0 resources, can they still use their tech related ability, yes or no?
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Ron Hunt
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Yes.

Page 6 of the FAQ:

"When the Jol-Nar player resolves the secondary ability of the Technology Card, he may also (in addition) execute the primary ability. This allows the Jol-Nar to both receive a free Technology (for the primary ability), as well as purchase a Technology if desired (for the secondary ability). The Jol-Nar player may choose to receive only the free Technology for the primary ability, and choose not to pay 8 resources for a second Technology (but the Jol-Nar must still pay a Command Counter to resolve the secondary ability, unless they choose the Initiative Strategy)."
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Cristian Lazarescu
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OK, yes it is then, I'll take your word for it.

However, if you based your answer on the FAQ, then the question is still open. Because "choose not to pay 8 resources" isn't the same as "choose not to pay 8 AVAILABLE resources" or "choose not to pay 8 NON-AVAILABLE resources".
It's a bit like asking a bank for a credit guaranteed by your existent income: you don't actually give said income to the bank, but you have to have it in order to qualify for the credit. If your income is under the value needed for the credit, then you don't get the credit.
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Ron Hunt
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If the player wants to take advantage of the secondary ability of the Technology Strategy Card (SC), then they have to have at least 8 points of available, non exausted resource points to pay, or they don't get the second tech advancement. You can only use the resources that haven't been exausted. For example, say I have 8 planets with a total resource value of, say 10 resources, just to make things simple. Previous to the Tech SC being played, I spent 5 resources to build sone units, for example. I now have 5 unexausted resource points left this phase. Further, lets say the other player with the Tech SC plays it during their strategy phase. I, the Jol-Nar player would be able to use my racial ability to get a free tech as if I had played the Tech SC. However, because I do not have 8 available resources, I could NOT take advantage of the secondary ability of the SC. So, even though I have 10 potential resource points, if I have already used them, or that planet was exausted to use the influence portion of the card (you can only use the influence or resource value of a card, not both), you may not spend "future" points in that fashion. Page 21 of the rule book, right column, bottom of the page explains that a little more.

"When you exhaust a planet for its resources or influence, it provides you with all of its resources or influence. You cannot use the resources of influence of a planet partially, nor can you save a portion for later."
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Scott Lewis
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Killdozer wrote:
OK, yes it is then, I'll take your word for it.

However, if you based your answer on the FAQ, then the question is still open. Because "choose not to pay 8 resources" isn't the same as "choose not to pay 8 AVAILABLE resources" or "choose not to pay 8 NON-AVAILABLE resources".
It's a bit like asking a bank for a credit guaranteed by your existent income: you don't actually give said income to the bank, but you have to have it in order to qualify for the credit. If your income is under the value needed for the credit, then you don't get the credit.

There is nothing that says that you must have the 8 resources. The FAQ explicitly states you can acquire the free tech without spending the 8 resources, but there is nothing that even indicates that you have to at least have those 8 resources available.

It's not like asking a bank for credit - their race is scholars and scientists, and they are more easily able to acquire technologies. There is no "loan", no "borrowing" being done here - they simply have access to both the Primary and the Secondary when activating the latter.

Any player could, in theory, activate the secondary of Technology and choose not to buy one, regardless of whether they had 8 resources available or not. Of course, for anyone but the Jol-Nar, this would be silly, since they'd just be wasting a CC, but the Jol-Nar absolutely can do this.

If you want an official confirmation, you can submit a rules question to FFG about it; you'll get the same response You don't need to have 8 resources available to use the Jol-Nar's racial ability.
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Cristian Lazarescu
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It appears then that an official clarification is needed. I will do so and post back here the answer, provided there is one. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that no one has yet asked this question.
For further clarification, those 8 resources should exist in whatever combination of exhausted/non-exhausted planets/TCs the Jol-Nar player has - but they should exist. It may not be game logic (if the word is not too strong), but it's common sense logic.

sigmazero13 wrote:
There is nothing that says that you must have the 8 resources. The FAQ explicitly states you can acquire the free tech without spending the 8 resources, but there is nothing that even indicates that you have to at least have those 8 resources available.

Yes, well, there is nothing that says the contrary either, is it? Not spending resources is not the same as not having resources to spend.
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Joseph Cochran
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Killdozer wrote:
It appears then that an official clarification is needed. I will do so and post back here the answer, provided there is one. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that no one has yet asked this question.
For further clarification, those 8 resources should exist in whatever combination of exhausted/non-exhausted planets/TCs the Jol-Nar player has - but they should exist. It may not be game logic (if the word is not too strong), but it's common sense logic.

sigmazero13 wrote:
There is nothing that says that you must have the 8 resources. The FAQ explicitly states you can acquire the free tech without spending the 8 resources, but there is nothing that even indicates that you have to at least have those 8 resources available.

Yes, well, there is nothing that says the contrary either, is it? Not spending resources is not the same as not having resources to spend.


There's no "verify that you meet the requirements" step on ANY of the strategies. You just have to spend the command counter from the strategic allocation. If you do that, you can then do whatever else you can afford. Someone with 3 discount in red and only 3 resources and 2 Trade Goods doesn't have to verify beforehand that they can pay in order to be able to activate the secondary token: heck, the other day I had an action card that made a Tech cheaper and I didn't have to reveal it to prove I should be able (barring sabotage) to buy prior to spending my command counter.

It's just not reasonable to invent a "must verify" step where one does not exist. Command counters are rare enough: if Jol-Nar (or anyone) wants to waste one on something they can't do, why stop them?
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Ron Hunt
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Killdozer wrote:
It appears then that an official clarification is needed. I will do so and post back here the answer, provided there is one. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that no one has yet asked this question.
For further clarification, those 8 resources should exist in whatever combination of exhausted/non-exhausted planets/TCs the Jol-Nar player has - but they should exist. It may not be game logic (if the word is not too strong), but it's common sense logic.

sigmazero13 wrote:
There is nothing that says that you must have the 8 resources. The FAQ explicitly states you can acquire the free tech without spending the 8 resources, but there is nothing that even indicates that you have to at least have those 8 resources available.

Yes, well, there is nothing that says the contrary either, is it? Not spending resources is not the same as not having resources to spend.


The only resource you need is the command counter to use the Jol-Nar ability. You don't even need that if you are playing with the Initiative SC.
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Scott Lewis
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Killdozer wrote:
It appears then that an official clarification is needed. I will do so and post back here the answer, provided there is one. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that no one has yet asked this question.
For further clarification, those 8 resources should exist in whatever combination of exhausted/non-exhausted planets/TCs the Jol-Nar player has - but they should exist. It may not be game logic (if the word is not too strong), but it's common sense logic.

It's not, though. It doesn't make any sense to me that the FAQ would specifically say you do NOT have to buy the tech, but then try to infer that you'd have to have the resources anyway.

There is NOTHING in Twilight Imperium where you have to have resources for anything unless you are actually using them to buy something. Why would it be any different for this? Unless you are buying the 8-cost tech, you don't have to have 8 resources. If Jol-Nar activates the secondary and then uses their ability, they can get a free Tech; having 8 resources is not a prerequisite for that.

Quote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
There is nothing that says that you must have the 8 resources. The FAQ explicitly states you can acquire the free tech without spending the 8 resources, but there is nothing that even indicates that you have to at least have those 8 resources available.

Yes, well, there is nothing that says the contrary either, is it? Not spending resources is not the same as not having resources to spend.

My point is, as mentioned above, there is nowhere else in the game where you have to have resources to do something, other than when actually spending them.

IE, by saying you have to have the 8 resources (but not spend them), you are adding a rule (IE, a rule that says "you must possess resources that you aren't spending to do something")
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Magic Octopus
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magicoctopus wrote:
The Jol-Nar do not need any resources to execute the secondary..


Killdozer wrote:
Not a clear answer. Let me put it this way: if the Jol-Nar have 0 resources, can they still use their tech related ability, yes or no?


I thought that was clear.

In any case, Sigma, as usual, nailed it.
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Cristian Lazarescu
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Official position confirms that when it comes to executing their tech ability, resources are irrelevant to the Jol-Nar player, so the debate is over as far as I'm concerned.
However, wording in the FAQ and in the game and in the rulebook leaves a lot to be desired (and I'm being very diplomatic here). Nevermind though, house rules can always be applied and forums are always open laugh .

Thank you for the answers and Happy New year to all!
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Scott Lewis
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Here's what Corey said:

"They are not required purchase a technology when using their racial advantage.

As per the FAQ, the Jol-Nar player may resolve the secondary ability even if they can't afford (or choose not to) purchase a technology. They would still receive the free technology from the primary ability."
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Seren of Moon
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Just an additional note because I did not notice it here, since we're trying to explicitly describe the Jol-Nar ability: they can use the primary and the secondary.

The Jol-Nar really have many options. For example, assuming they have no discounts available:
(1) Spend SA and get 1 free tech (no resources required).
(2) Spend SA and 6 resources to get 2 techs (free from primary and 6 from secondary).
(3) Spend SA and 14 resources to get 3 techs (free + 8 resource tech from primary and 6 resource tech from secondary)

Just stating the obvious to many of you, but I remember having this question when I was a noob.
 
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Patrick H
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Quote:
When the Jol-Nar player resolves the secondary ability of the Technology Card, he may also (in addition) execute the primary ability. This allows the Jol-Nar to both receive a free Technology (for the primary ability), as well as purchase a Technology if desired (for the secondary ability). The Jol-Nar player may choose to receive only the free technology for the primary ability, and choose not to pay 8 resources for a second Technology (but the Jol-Nar must still pay a Command Counter to resolve the secondary ability, unless they chose the Initiative Strategy). All other players simply resolve the secondary ability as usual. The Jol-Nar ability does not trigger a second “round” of secondary ability resolution.


"Resolves" being the key word. No where in the secondary of TECH 2 does it say you "may" pay 6 to recieve a tech. Its an implied if you activate the secondary you MUST pay 6 to receive a tech. I would argue that if you don't pay that initial 6 to get a tech you never RESOLVED the secondary of TECH and are not allowed to use the racial ability. The following sentence, in my opinion is referring to once the Jol-Nar player has RESOLVED the secondary of TECH.

Quote:
The Jol-Nar player may choose to receive only the free technology for the primary ability, and choose not to pay 8 resources for a second Technology (but the Jol-Nar must still pay a Command Counter to resolve the secondary ability, unless they chose the Initiative Strategy)


EDIT: So I guess I see it as the Jol-Nar player must fully complete the Secondary of TECH before he/she is allowed to receive a free tech.
 
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Jeroboam wrote:
EDIT: So I guess I see it as the Jol-Nar player must fully complete the Secondary of TECH before he/she is allowed to receive a free tech.


But two posts (albeit a year) above you can see a clear and unequivocal statement that that is not the right rule.
 
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Patrick H
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I concede! I'm guessing Corey is an Fantasy Flight employee who responds to rules questions? Either way I will trust this mysterious man named Corey! Also I've been challenging this all day with my friends and I need to get back to painting my TI minis.
 
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Jeroboam wrote:
I concede! I'm guessing Corey is an Fantasy Flight employee who responds to rules questions? Either way I will trust this mysterious man named Corey! Also I've been challenging this all day with my friends and I need to get back to painting my TI minis.

Corey is one of the creators of TI3 and he answers many of the TI3 related questions sent to FFG.
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Scott Lewis
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Indeed, Corey isn't just some random person, he's one of the developers of the expansions (as well as many other games) and is the primary rules person for TI3. I think he's a VP at FFG right now.
 
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