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Dominion: Cornucopia» Forums » Rules

Subject: Tournament card and blocking with a Province rss

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David Detwiler
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If you block the Tournament by revealing a Province, do you also discard it or do you put it back in your hand?
 
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David Goldfarb
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In general after you reveal a card you then put that card back in your hand. (Unless some card says something different, which in this case it doesn't.)
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DC
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Correct, you keep the Province in your hand. Anyone playing a Tournament who wants to gain a Prize must discard the Province (as instructed on the Tournament card).
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Jeff Wolfe
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David Goldfarb wrote:
In general after you reveal a card you then put that card back in your hand. (Unless some card says something different, which in this case it doesn't.)

Not all cards are revealed from your hand, so a better way to state the general rule is that you put the card back where it came from, unless told to do something else with it.

In the case of Tournament, the person who played Tournament (i.e. "you") is told to discard the revealed Province, but the other players (usually called "they") are not told what to do. So the Tournament player discards his Province (and gains a Prize) while the others put their Provinces back in their hands.
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David Detwiler
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Thanks for the feedback. My father-in-law still thinks that the Province shown to block the Tournament is supposed to be discarded since in the text it says other players "may" show a Province to block. His point is, why would it say "may" if there is nothing to lose by showing it. Why would there need to be a choice? I am unable to think of a condition where showing a Province and returning it to your own hand would have any disadvantage. Can anyone else think of one?

Thanks again!
 
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Charles Waterman
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Well, Crossroads gives you an extra card in hand for each Victory Point card you currently have in your hand. Therefore, discarding a Province would mean you'd draw one less extra card if you played a Crossroads on your turn. Also, Cellar would be less useful.

Edited. OOPS. I was thinking about discarding the Province, which of course you don't do unless you're the player who *played* the Province in the first place. Sorry!

Montebanc (no relation, but I do have some Followers *grin*)
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Jeff Wolfe
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weevol wrote:
My father-in-law still thinks that the Province shown to block the Tournament is supposed to be discarded since in the text it says other players "may" show a Province to block. His point is, why would it say "may" if there is nothing to lose by showing it. Why would there need to be a choice?

It's a choice so that you're not cheating if you fail to reveal a Province. We don't know what's in your hand, so we can't tell if you should reveal a Province or not. If it's optional, there's no problem. And once one opponent has revealed a Province, there's little reason for anybody else to do so, so why hold up the game for it.

Donald has tried to include anti-cheating wording where ever possible. Throne Room is a notable exception, but that was in the first set. The wording is different for King's Court, which is otherwise just a more powerful Throne Room.
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David Detwiler
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montebanc wrote:
Well, Crossroads gives you an extra card in hand for each Victory Point card you currently have in your hand. Therefore, discarding a Province would mean you'd draw one less extra card if you played a Crossroads on your turn. Also, Cellar would be less useful.

Montebanc (no relation, but I do have some Followers *grin*)


You have given two possible advantages for showing and keeping the card which I agree with. What I am looking for is any reason that a player would NOT want to show their Province to block the original player who played the Tournament.

"Show and discard for the block" has disadvantages in addition to what you listed. If the player whose turn it is has multiple Tournament cards in hand, one Province can block both but if you opt to show it and are required to discard it after blocking the first one, then one Province only blocks one Tournament.

Why "may" a player choose not to show their Province for the block if they retain it in their hand after showing it? Is there any advantage to not blocking?
 
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David Goldfarb
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How about this:

You're leading in a three or more-player game. If you don't block the Tournament played, the player will end the game with you winning. If you do, the game will continue, introducing uncertainty into the outcome.

More than a little far-fetched, I admit.
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Simon Kamber
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weevol wrote:
montebanc wrote:
Well, Crossroads gives you an extra card in hand for each Victory Point card you currently have in your hand. Therefore, discarding a Province would mean you'd draw one less extra card if you played a Crossroads on your turn. Also, Cellar would be less useful.

Montebanc (no relation, but I do have some Followers *grin*)


You have given two possible advantages for showing and keeping the card which I agree with. What I am looking for is any reason that a player would NOT want to show their Province to block the original player who played the Tournament.

"Show and discard for the block" has disadvantages in addition to what you listed. If the player whose turn it is has multiple Tournament cards in hand, one Province can block both but if you opt to show it and are required to discard it after blocking the first one, then one Province only blocks one Tournament.

Why "may" a player choose not to show their Province for the block if they retain it in their hand after showing it? Is there any advantage to not blocking?

You have already discarded down to three cards, and you know that he has a militia on top of his deck which you would prefer him to draw now rather than next round.

It is very situational, but as mentioned above, Donald X. has been careful to make anything that requires you to reveal part of your hand optional.
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Charles Waterman
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No advantage in my book.
 
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Chris Schumann
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weevol wrote:
What I am looking for is any reason that a player would NOT want to show their Province to block the original player who played the Tournament.

The advantage is especially for new players who in their excitement might not notice they have a province in their hand, so they would not be cheating if they did not reveal it.

Consider the alternative if the card said you must reveal: Player A plays tournament. Player B has a province does not block it. Player B on her turn then plays all her cards and there is a province. Now what should happen?
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Matt E
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Whizkid wrote:
weevol wrote:
What I am looking for is any reason that a player would NOT want to show their Province to block the original player who played the Tournament.

The advantage is especially for new players who in their excitement might not notice they have a province in their hand, so they would not be cheating if they did not reveal it.

Consider the alternative if the card said you must reveal: Player A plays tournament. Player B has a province does not block it. Player B on her turn then plays all her cards and there is a province. Now what should happen?


You can't play Provinces, but your point is a good one.
 
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Nevin Steindam
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The most common reason to choose not to reveal a Province is because some other player already has. In that case, why give people any more information about your hand? This isn't usually a big deal, but any information might make a difference. (If nothing else, keeping quiet about your own Province makes it harder for later players to judge whether THEY should play a Tournament.)

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Mike Young
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I have a Militia and a Ghost Ship in my hand. If I know you have a Province, I might want to play the Militia over the Ghost Ship since I might want you to discard the Province instead of put it back on top of your deck to try to match it with a Tournament next turn.
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Matt N

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Buggy wrote:
I have a Militia and a Ghost Ship in my hand. If I know you have a Province, I might want to play the Militia over the Ghost Ship since I might want you to discard the Province instead of put it back on top of your deck to try to match it with a Tournament next turn.


Somewhat in the same vein, I (tournament person) might have a minion or two coming up. If someone reveals a province, I would generally assume they have a weaker hand and might just use the minion coin to buy a duchy. If they don't reveal a province, I might decide to toss my hand in order to make you toss yours.

Stemming from this, you might not block a tournament with a truly awful hand if you think a much better four card hand could be coming up in a game with minion.

Yes, it's highly situational.
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Steve L

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weevol wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. My father-in-law still thinks that the Province shown to block the Tournament is supposed to be discarded since in the text it says other players "may" show a Province to block. His point is, why would it say "may" if there is nothing to lose by showing it. Why would there need to be a choice? I am unable to think of a condition where showing a Province and returning it to your own hand would have any disadvantage. Can anyone else think of one?

Thanks again!


One scenario: three player game with you, A, and B. It's currently A's turn and B's turn is next. You feel that A's deck is performing worse than yours and B's deck is performing better than yours.

You may choose not to reveal your Province when A plays Tournament and let A close the gap between him/her and you with the Prize. That way, should B choose to play Tournament on his or her turn expecting to win a Prize, you can surprise B with your Province and prevent B from increasing the gap between him/her and you.

If you had blocked A by revealing your Province, B could choose to play something other than Tournament or to play in a different order (say by playing cards that forces a discard [like Urchin, Village + discarder] then Tournament instead of the other way around.)

Knowledge can sometimes be a valuable commodity and can be lost or given away.
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Wouter van Helvoort
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weevol wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. My father-in-law still thinks that the Province shown to block the Tournament is supposed to be discarded since in the text it says other players "may" show a Province to block. His point is, why would it say "may" if there is nothing to lose by showing it. Why would there need to be a choice? I am unable to think of a condition where showing a Province and returning it to your own hand would have any disadvantage. Can anyone else think of one?

Thanks again!


The posts above already give lots of edge-cases, and I'll add another:
If you have been paying attention, you might just KNOW what card they will draw (e.g. someone played Spy, or there is only one card left in the draw pile). If that card is an attack that you don't mind being played (e.g. Militia when you have a 3-card hand but other players don't as mentioned, but also Pirate Ship or Thief when you're the only one to have stripped your deck of treasure, or Bureaucrat and you want to put your province back on your draw pile so you have another chance at matching it with your own Tournament which is still in your draw deck) you might just decide not to block, especially if somebody else already blocked.

I think allowing a Bureaucrat attack is the prettiest one I came up with here. Oh! Perhaps Rabble: Let's say you have a Tournament and a Lab in hand, but no Province; I seriously wouldn't mind someone allowing me to skip all those non-green cards from the top of my deck!

As cool as this all sounds, it does need some serious "star-alignment" to be worthwile Nevertheless, it is cool that the game at least gives you the option to make this kind of plays.


EDIT: Sorry for the thread-necro, wasn't paying attention to the dates.
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Merudo
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weevol wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. My father-in-law still thinks that the Province shown to block the Tournament is supposed to be discarded since in the text it says other players "may" show a Province to block. His point is, why would it say "may" if there is nothing to lose by showing it. Why would there need to be a choice? I am unable to think of a condition where showing a Province and returning it to your own hand would have any disadvantage. Can anyone else think of one?

Showing your Province actually gives a lot of information about your hand. It tells others you have 1 "useless" card in hand so that you'll be less likely to get another Province - unless you also have a Tournament, in which case you'll get a prize on your turn. Crucially, it also tells players playing after the current player but before you that you can reveal a province to block their own Tournaments.

More importantly, it you *had* to reveal the Province, it would be rather hard to monitor cheating. The rules of Dominion are elegant enough that no card rely on the honesty of other players to tell the truth about their hand. For example, Menagerie & Crossroad require you to show your whole hand when played, and Bureaucrat will reveal any hands without victory cards. I think it would make Tournament overpowered & tedious if everyone without a Province had to reveal their hands.
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Simon Kamber
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Merudo wrote:

More importantly, it you *had* to reveal the Province, it would be rather hard to monitor cheating. The rules of Dominion are elegant enough that no card rely on the honesty of other players to tell the truth about their hand. For example, Menagerie & Crossroad require you to show your whole hand when played, and Bureaucrat will reveal any hands without victory cards. I think it would make Tournament overpowered & tedious if everyone without a Province had to reveal their hands.


There is the exception of throne room, but otherwise, I agree.
 
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