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Subject: Unpopular gaming opinions rss

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Him
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xethair wrote:
Games that take less than an hour simply aren't worth playing. People that want to play more shorter games over fewer, more involved games are evolving the hobby right into the toilet.

Settlers of Catan is a terrible, boring ordeal that should never have been released. I have not enjoyed even one playing of it. I suspect many potential board gamers have actually failed to realize their interest in board games because someone told them about this amazing thing they should get into, and used Settlers as the example (as happened with me, many years ago).

Ticket to Ride is even worse, it just hasn't been doing it as long/pervasively.

Dominion is boring "Look what happened on my turn!" group masturbation.

The entire genres of Party Games and Trivia Games should be recycled for toilet paper, so they can become useful.

Trying to keep this short... so hard...


1. I'll be curious about what you have to say when you have kids taking up all of your time.

2. I've played shorter games that have all of the depth, calculations, and even gameplay elements as longer games. For instance, compare Glen More or The Castles of Burgundy with Ora et Labora.

3. There is plenty of research to argue that party games work out the social part of the brain in a way that actually better delays mental decline than calculating strategy games with low face to face interaction.

4. I like a lot of the games you have rated as a 9 or ten, but they could be called group masturbation just as easily as Dominion.

5. I doubt Settlers has chased away nearly as many potential gamers as you think. What was your problem with the game?

Sorry to be contrary to just you. You just happened to hit on several of my "unpopular opinions".
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EXTRA AVOCADO! Sonderegger
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xethair wrote:
Games that take less than an hour simply aren't worth playing. People that want to play more shorter games over fewer, more involved games are evolving the hobby right into the toilet.

Settlers of Catan is a terrible, boring ordeal that should never have been released. I have not enjoyed even one playing of it. I suspect many potential board gamers have actually failed to realize their interest in board games because someone told them about this amazing thing they should get into, and used Settlers as the example (as happened with me, many years ago).

Ticket to Ride is even worse, it just hasn't been doing it as long/pervasively.

Dominion is boring "Look what happened on my turn!" group masturbation.

The entire genres of Party Games and Trivia Games should be recycled for toilet paper, so they can become useful.

Trying to keep this short... so hard...


Thumbed for partial agreement, but the also the courage to say so.
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J-P Latvala
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Here is few of my maybe not so popular thoughts.

1. I like 3+ hour games are better than under 60min games. I'd rather play 1 game of Paths of Glory and lose, than have 10-game winning streak on Dominion.

2. There is too much expansions for games that doesn't need that.

3. Illuminati is a great game.

4. Co-op games make me feel like I am playing solitaire with others.

5. Reading rules can be fun. I think I spend more time with rulebooks than playing games in 2012.

6. Every game should have cards (events, plots etc. something that could come and shake the routine)

7. Game can't be bad if it has hidden abilities (like identities, powers or goals.)
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Cracky McCracken
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Quote:
Settlers of Catan should be a top 10 game.

The game is responsible for so much goodness, so much growth in this market, everyone who lambastes it should shut their fool mouths and not bite the hand that fed them. It is bar none, the best gateway game.


Depends on when you got into the hobby. I've never played Settlers.

If you really want to single out a game for creating so much gaming goodness, i would point you to Magic: The Gathering.

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Agent Minivann wrote:
Settlers of Catan = Monopoly

I feel the same.
Mor specifically, I feel like it leans on the mechanics people like about Monopoly, and does away with the stuff people dislike about monopoly... So I guess I feel like Catan = Monopoly if someone updated it without any sacred cows
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Scott Hill
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Staccat0 wrote:
Agent Minivann wrote:
Settlers of Catan = Monopoly

I feel the same.
Mor specifically, I feel like it leans on the mechanics people like about Monopoly, and does away with the stuff people dislike about monopoly... So I guess I feel like Catan = Monopoly if someone updated it without any sacred cows


Which mechanics are they, exactly?

It's been a while since I played either game, but the only mechanics I can think of that two games share are dice rolling, and cards. And both of those are used in entirely different ways in the two games.
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David Buckley
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Staccat0 wrote:
Agent Minivann wrote:
Settlers of Catan = Monopoly

I feel the same.
Mor specifically, I feel like it leans on the mechanics people like about Monopoly, and does away with the stuff people dislike about monopoly... So I guess I feel like Catan = Monopoly if someone updated it without any sacred cows


Which mechanics are they, exactly?

It's been a while since I played either game, but the only mechanics I can think of that two games share are dice rolling, and cards. And both of those are used in entirely different ways in the two games.


There's also trading in both games but I do agree with the point you are making. The two games don't seem similar to me.
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Josh
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Buckersuk wrote:
hsiale wrote:
Buckersuk wrote:
Dominion doesn't rely on knowledge in the way that, say Carcasonne or Race for the Galaxy do. With Dominion a new player has access to as much information as his more experienced opponents.

I don't know what way you mean. But a new Dominion player (as in every other game) has no access to one important resource: experience you get from playing, replaying, testing things and so on. Experience is needed to estimate how fast various strategies available on the board are, to adjust and finetune all the time depending on opponent's plan and your shuffle luck, to play the endgame so that game ending condition is triggered when you're in the lead. I have all the information but still little experience and this causes me to lose games very often - even though I don't even play against top level opponents.


The way I mean is that knowing what tiles are in Carcasonne or what cards are in RftG is an advantage. In Dominion the only advantage the experienced player has is his extra experience. I'm intrigued by the quote "don't confuse knowledge with skill". Does that mean that the OP considers it bad if experience is an asset in a game?


Bad? Not at all. It is just not what I consider skill. knowing from experience how cards interact and what timings occur in a game when your opponent knows nothing about the game doesn't make you a more skillful gamer, it just means you have specialized knowledge pertinent to the situation. Non gaming example: If you memorized the square roots of all the prime numbers from 1-117 out to the third decimal place, then someday you and a stranger are asked on the spot what they are, does your ability to answer mean you are better at math? Or just that you had 'experience' in that specific instance?

My difficulty in enjoying Dominion comes from basically... how my brain works. I pick up on patterns and interconnections *very* quickly. This leads to a quick classification between meaningful and meaningless choices. Lots of games have 'choices!' that are by and large in any given situation 1 best choice and lots of 'other' choices, or have choices rendered moot by chance. The more utility that can be derived from each element of a game, the more player input there is while retaining a healthy dose of limited foreknowledge to keep things fresh, the more I enjoy it.

To break Dominion down, it has a single currency in the game, Gold.(or silver, copper, whatever) every action is focused around acquiring X amount of gold in a single turn to turn it into a VP card. Actions, buys, draws, etc are all simply means to achieve that end. Everyone starts at exactly the same spot. Everyone has exactly the same goal. Everyone uses exactly the same bank of cards. There is in this framework a best path. You can test it if you eliminate deck shuffling. Have everyone order their deck identically to start and have everyone simply flip their discards instead of shuffling them for a new deck. Everyone will know what is coming and when, just watch the AP creep as people calculate what to do when, but it is the core of the game; fastest path to the goal.

The only difference between this and the way the game is played normally is shuffling, the 'luck' element.

'But, attack cards!' you say. Attack cards in Dominion are the equivalent of sticking your foot out to trip your neighbor in a foot race. If you do it at exactly the right time and it trips him up, you gain yourself a lead. If it doesn't then you've wasted your time with a ploy and lost positioning in the race. So yes it can affect things, but the effect it has is based on... luck. When it comes up and what they have in their hands at the time.

One example was given with the Library/Militia interaction above. To me, the way my mind works, that isn't a meaningful choice. My opponent has taken something to take away all my cards. I may now choose to combat that, or not. If I choose not I am simply relying on chance that I will be able to function in any event, or that his card won't come up that often. If I choose to counter with a defense, I am still relying on chance that my card will be there when his card is there. There's no one at the switch, it's just some bald if/then/maybes driven by luck of the draw.


I know a few others who have the same problem with some games that I do, I know many that don't. That is why I hold an 'unpopular' opinion regarding Dominion, I recognize I am in the minority ^^.


I don't want to hog the thread anymore than I have already, if folks are interested in discussing it further maybe we should make a new thread?
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Shawn Burk
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bigmac33070 wrote:
Descent 1.0 is WAAYYYYY better than Descent 2.0.


Yes!
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Lance Eisenhauer
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This doesn't qualify as an unpopular gaming opinion, but then neither do most of the replies on the last ten pages of this discussion and it needs to be said:

This discussion needs to end. Now! whistle
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Shadrach wrote:

To break Dominion down, it has a single currency in the game, Gold.(or silver, copper, whatever) every action is focused around acquiring X amount of gold in a single turn to turn it into a VP card. Actions, buys, draws, etc are all simply means to achieve that end.


Even within the base game, that's not strictly true. Of course the goal of the game is to get more VPs than your opponents, but there are absolutely different ways of doing that.

The classic "alt-VP" Workshop/Gardens strategy doesn't focus on money => VP at all - it's simply a case of buy a Workshop, use the Workshop to gain all the other Workshops, use the Workshops to gain all the Gardens, empty one more pile and win before your opponents can do much more than buy one or two Provinces.

And I will totally play the game differently if my opponent starts showing signs of doing this as opposed if they just buy money. My argument is that it's very rarely a case of deciding your strategy beforehand and executing it, and seeing if it turned out to be better than everyone else's strategy (i.e. "multiplayer solitaire"). Sure, initial strategy is important (it's like the pre-game deckbuilding in MTG) but responding to your opponent is also important.

TL;DNR: There's rarely a single "dominant" strategy for any given setup, and what your opponent is doing should have an effect on how you play.
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Josh
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I mentioned not wishing to threadjack. We will have to simply disagree unless you wish to make a new thread or take it to PMs
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Donal Behal
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for me it has to be Power Grid: First Sparks

Played this game twice in a row and twice I was stuck unable to grow my tribes.Worst gaming experience ever.

On teh Dominion topic I find that without the attack cards there can be very little interaction between players and can end up as good as I play on my own let everyone watch while I play tons of +cards + actions until I can buy the card I want.

A 3-4 player dominion with the correct kingdomcards can be a blast.
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Pouria
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Not exactly a game opinion but a 'gaming' opinion:

If a game comes in a huge box for no reason, ditch the box or cut it down to size (unless you are looking to ever trade it away or have collectors OCD)!
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Nathan
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Buckersuk wrote:
Lobotnik wrote:
Buckersuk wrote:
Just remembered another unpopular opinion of mine. Other things being equal, dice are a better way of generating uncertainty to cards. Dice produce random results. Cards don't unless they have been shuffled a lot more thoroughly than is common practice.

I have a particular issue with f2f Dominion (and other games in which the deck is not shared) in this regard because the uncertainty is partial. Being a poor shuffler might be an advantage. It might be a disadvantage. My gut feeling is that it's situational but normally advantageous not to shuffle well. It doesn't matter. The point is that it is highly unlikely that how well you shuffle your deck has no effect on your chances of victory. Curiously no one else seems bothered by this


Some people are incredibly bothered by this. There was a massive thread started by a guy who said he put his discards in a certain order to increase chances of a good draw (before shuffling) and then tried to say it was no cheating because if you shuffled correctly it would make no difference. But why do something if it does not make a difference? Anyway, it started a pretty heated conversation on the merits of shuffling and whether or not shuffles properly randomised the deck. Donnie X waded in as well to say that what the guy was doing was stacking the deck, but it was quite illuminating to see what peoples' views were, on correct shuffling.

Here is the forum, but the OP has been deleted so you cannot tell what the original question is, except it is quoted about 10 posts down. Enjoy

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/816127/is-there-any-rules-pr...


Interesting thread but I must say I found many of the responses unnecessarily vindictive. I also believe those who were claiming that if the order you discard matters than you aren't shuffling enough are missing an important point. The advice is well and good for people who are efficient at shuffling cards but I am not one of those people. If I continued shuffling my deck until my cards were randomly distributed the game would probably last an hour or so and not be any fun. Furthermore I believe that most of the people who play Dominion fail to randomize their decks for exactly the same reason.

None of the above should be taken to mean that I approve of discarding in a way to take advantage of inadequate shuffling. I don't.


Yeah, the comments about this guy being immoral were probably overstepping the bounds. I am not sure I would agree with it, as I really think you are either stacking the deck so to speak, or wasting your time if you shuffle well enough. But these people did definitely take their shuffling seriously, and it was interesting to see what they had to say.
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Nathan
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2grve wrote:
Not exactly a game opinion but a 'gaming' opinion:

If a game comes in a huge box for no reason, ditch the box or cut it down to size (unless you are looking to ever trade it away or have collectors OCD)!


Some people were pretty horrified when you turned up with the sliced in half Caylus box, but it was a great idea.
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Cracky McCracken
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2grve wrote:
Not exactly a game opinion but a 'gaming' opinion:

If a game comes in a huge box for no reason, ditch the box or cut it down to size (unless you are looking to ever trade it away or have collectors OCD)!


Yup. Rune Wars is being reprinted with a "normal" sized box and no plastic mountains. Good move FFG.
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Lloyd
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2grve wrote:
Not exactly a game opinion but a 'gaming' opinion:

If a game comes in a huge box for no reason, ditch the box or cut it down to size (unless you are looking to ever trade it away or have collectors OCD)!




BOX MURDERER!
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sweetsweetdoughnuts wrote:
2grve wrote:
Not exactly a game opinion but a 'gaming' opinion:

If a game comes in a huge box for no reason, ditch the box or cut it down to size (unless you are looking to ever trade it away or have collectors OCD)!




BOX MURDERER!


Could be worse, he could be a cereal box murderer.
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jimbrax wrote:
Could be worse, he could be a cereal box murderer.


Don't tell anyone, but I'm a serial cereal box murderer. See this board?



Cereal box. These tiles?



Pasted onto cereal box and cut up.









AAAAAAAGGHHHHH the ghosts of my victims are everywhere!!
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sweetsweetdoughnuts wrote:
2grve wrote:
Not exactly a game opinion but a 'gaming' opinion:

If a game comes in a huge box for no reason, ditch the box or cut it down to size (unless you are looking to ever trade it away or have collectors OCD)!




BOX MURDERER!


You should see what i did to Planet Steam. devil
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Slyvanian Frog
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Buckersuk wrote:
Just remembered another unpopular opinion of mine. Other things being equal, dice are a better way of generating uncertainty to cards. Dice produce random results. Cards don't unless they have been shuffled a lot more thoroughly than is common practice.


I agree. Also, the range of possibilities from cards changes (unlike with dice) unless you shuffle the entire deck (including the card you just drew) each time you draw a card.
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Pouria
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jimbrax wrote:
sweetsweetdoughnuts wrote:
2grve wrote:
Not exactly a game opinion but a 'gaming' opinion:

If a game comes in a huge box for no reason, ditch the box or cut it down to size (unless you are looking to ever trade it away or have collectors OCD)!




BOX MURDERER!


Could be worse, he could be a cereal box murderer.




Although your are too late to save anyone! I just took a scalpel to Taluva devil
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Clay Hales
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Buckersuk wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Staccat0 wrote:
Agent Minivann wrote:
Settlers of Catan = Monopoly

I feel the same.
Mor specifically, I feel like it leans on the mechanics people like about Monopoly, and does away with the stuff people dislike about monopoly... So I guess I feel like Catan = Monopoly if someone updated it without any sacred cows


Which mechanics are they, exactly?

It's been a while since I played either game, but the only mechanics I can think of that two games share are dice rolling, and cards. And both of those are used in entirely different ways in the two games.


There's also trading in both games but I do agree with the point you are making. The two games don't seem similar to me.

I can't really speak for Staccat0, but this is how I see it:

Monopoly: buy property, Catan: build settlement. Players in both games are "fighting" over areas of the board that will give them advantages over the other players. Those can then be developed to increase the advantage. Catan does this a bit better in making the board different every time, so it isn't always the same spaces that everyone wants the most. The games feature different forms of "currency", but they are similar. It is kind of the central feature in both games.

In both games the dice can hose you. You can have a sound strategy, you can make good decisions, and not have any real chance of doing well. The dice are critical to building wealth in both games: collecting rent and money from positive spaces in Monopoly, and collecting commodities in Catan.

Not always strictly mechanical, but I think the practical effect is that they are very similar.

I think the biggest difference (and reason people tend to prefer Catan) is that Catan has a clear, easily attainable finish. You get your points, you win. Monopoly is much more nebulous, and built on player elimination. Catan lacks the type of player interaction necessary to facilitate this. I think that if Catan had that type of player interaction, the player who wins on points would often also win by being the "last man standing". But that also lends itself to the idea that someone who gets off to an early lead in Catan and Monopoly could become a runaway leader.

I would say a second difference is that Catan doesn't have the widespread use of house rules in place of the actual rules that are so detrimental to the game. I'm not sure how you could alter Catan to have the same practical effect as one of the iterations of the Free Parking house rules.
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Moe45673
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Catan does have some house rules that see relatively wide use, such as the idea that if someone doesn't get a resource within 3 rolls, they can choose one for free or the "Friendly Robber" variant.

Catan is a better game for a number of reasons mentioned, but another one is due to the fact that trading is always viable whereas in Monopoly the trading phase has a short lifespan
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