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Subject: Two tricky questions rss

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Nathan Bredfeldt
United States
Dallas
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First, which resource(s) do you like starting with on your wonder board? I was salivating over the promo photo of the Great Wall of Chine when I saw that it has Loom as its starting resource. I was disappointed for a while, but now I'm coming around on the idea of a manufactured good as starting.

Second, what do you usually use when you play 7W? Just the base game? Leaders? Cities? Both? I'm pondering which expansion to buy, but they seem about the same, and I kind of want Cities more than Leaders, but Leaders came first and I don't know that I want to get them out of order, but I'm not sure that leaders is even worth the money.

Maybe I'll just go lie down instead.
 
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brian
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DrNate wrote:
First, which resource(s) do you like starting with on your wonder board? I was salivating over the promo photo of the Great Wall of Chine when I saw that it has Loom as its starting resource. I was disappointed for a while, but now I'm coming around on the idea of a manufactured good as starting.

Doesn't matter to me. More concerned with what my neighbors have and what I will need to complete my wonders.

Quote:
Second, what do you usually use when you play 7W? Just the base game? Leaders? Cities? Both? I'm pondering which expansion to buy, but they seem about the same, and I kind of want Cities more than Leaders, but Leaders came first and I don't know that I want to get them out of order, but I'm not sure that leaders is even worth the money.

Maybe I'll just go lie down instead.

Everything. We shuffle in all the promos and use both Cities and Leaders.
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jeremy hammond
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I know plenty of people who don't like cities and love leaders. I personally love both. They both bring something different to the game, cities bringing more player interaction. If I really like a game, I get all expansions.

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Cameron McKenzie
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Cities feels like "more of the same." The Cities cards do have some new effects, but they are chosen and played just like any other card so there are very few rules changes. The expansion is good for almost any group, but not necessarily great.

Leaders changes the game more dramatically, by adding another phase to choose leaders and giving more long-term planning as you must weigh your choices each age against the leaders that will give you advantages in certain areas. If your group is more serious gamers that want a bit more depth, these are welcome changes. But some may see the extra material and needless complexity.


Leaders shakes up the game more, so the right expansion really depends on how much you want to shake up the game.
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Thiago Leite
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I like Manufactured Resourse because you put a green card early. but its a trouble at all start with raw resources.

i play only play tha base with newcomers then I use every expansion!

the "problem" (to some people) is that all leaders and black cards, is random, but I can deal with that.
 
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Fernando Robert Yu
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After I teach noobs using the base game, I play with everything I have (2 expansions + the Catan board). After all, what's the use of getting them if I don't use them?
 
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Ron
Austria
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ASL ... yes, this is my Desert Island Game. If I have to give up all my 3000+ games and only allowed to keep one, this would be it. This bloody game stood the test of time. Around for more than 25 years - simply the best.
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As Brian said, important is not only your starting resource, but also the resources of your neighbors.

I will always use both expansions. Leaders add a new layer to the game, while cities add an element of uncertainty, as you never know, which cards are in the game. IMHO both enhance the base game.
 
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David Jensen

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Expansions: Leaders vs City
You should start a poll. =) And change your non-sequitor subject heading

While you consider which expansion to buy; I recommend asking yourself if you would prefer to 'expand' on the game you already know (Leaders), or add an entirely new mechanic which dramatically changes the game (Cities). I should state that Cities seems to be best played with the Leaders pack, but the Leaders pack is not necessary to play with Cities.

Leaders introduces a new element that matches well with your current strategies and play style. You won't have to make many adjustments and thus game play will continue to be fast paced. You'll simply enjoy a deeper game with a faster learning curve and faster play times.

Cities makes for an entirely 'new' game. You'll have to relearn some of the benefits and balances with the new black cards. Thus game play will have a longer learning curve and longer game times. One potential downside to Cities first is that you won't start with the gold necessary to keep up with 'theives' and some of the playing costs of the cards. I could use comments from others to confirm this observation.

You're preference will help dictate which to buy first, but I think many of the contributors to this post will agree that you'll soon buy the additional expansion no matter which you choose first.

Happy Gaming!
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brian
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To me Leaders took 7W from a "beer & pretzels" game to something more strategic. Some people feel it is just adding another layer of randomness but I feel like it lets you craft your overall plan from the very beginning before the game even starts. I would always prefer to play with Leaders. The only draw back is with new players, there is too many symbols on top of the already too many symbols of the base game.

Cities is fun for the added variety. It is "more of the same" in that it is basically a new set of cards that compliments all the other cards. But it adds the new layer of interactivity with the peace mechanic and the debt penalties. It also extends the game one more round, which I don't mind. While I still like Leaders better, the big advantage to Cities is that it doesn't add too much more in terms of symbols so is easier to include with new players.
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Chad Miller
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Cities only ~= Cities + Leaders > Base game only >>>> Leaders imo. (In humanspeak, recommend Cities, anti-recommend Leaders with no Cities, Leaders + Cities is good).

As one of the more vocal Leaders-haters on this board, one reason Cities mitigates its flaws is by making money both more valuable and harder to get, thereby decreasing the starting-hand variance of Leaders. Being able to destroy money gives you a fighting chance against the kind of power combos that make the last half of a Leaders-only game not matter.
 
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Jacek Deimer
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We always play with both. After you learn new rules there is no point of going back...

Each expansion enchance game in different way but the common theme is gold. Coins are much more important and there is more money action in the game. There are new ways to gain, spend and lose (only in Cities) coins.

Cities adds more interaction between players.
Leaders adds more strategy and planning.

Both will challenge you with harder choices to make.
Both add more variety (randomness) to the game.
They work well together.

Get them both, you won't regret.
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Josh Trumbo
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I play with both expansions, and love them both. Personally, I appreciate Leaders a little more, because it potentially lets you change your strategy on the fly.

To give an example, in one game I managed to get a few leaders that helped up my science (through extra symbols, bonus points) and... I think it was Justinian (Leader who gives you 3 points for each set of blue, red, and green cards you have). My neighbors started denying me science cards because they saw my initial strategy, so I started going for sets of blue, red, and green. In Age III, I recruited Justinian and managed to pull out 12 extra points that my neighbors thought they were denying me. It was a sweet victory.
 
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Tables
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I think the question of starting resource is a bit of an interesting one, mainly, you can't easily break it down from the wonder boards themselves. But if I had to pick, probably wood or stone. Wood is great to have at least one of, and an Age I military card requires it. Having it to start would mean you can worry less about being locked out of tons of cards. Stone is really good, lots of powerful cards rely on Stone. While the Age I card using it isn't as good as military, (Baths IIRC? It's a 3 point Blue, I know that!), it's definitely a card I'd be happy to take. Manufactured goods are definitely less valuable starters in my mind - early game, they're only good for science, but getting a set of science is a perfectly useful thing to do.

As for expansions, I've only played Cities a couple of times, Leaders a lot more. I kind of like having Leaders, they make the game a lot more strategic (7 Wonders base isn't very strategic, it's mostly tactical) and add an extra element of hidden/asymmetrical knowledge (yes I know most hidden knowledge is asymetrical, but I mean you know a little more about a few leaders locations and less about others etc. depending on what you see in drafting). Cities doesn't really help with strategy, but adds a fair bit in terms of tactics. I think I prefer Leaders, but only slightly, and both together has worked well for us.
 
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Bryan McNeely
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Both Leaders and Cities are absolute must-haves.

The addition of Diplomacy has changed the way my "group" handles military. It used to be the most popular facet to focus on, but now it's done sparingly. I won a couple games just by declaring diplomacy at the end of Age III; throwing off the aggressive and causing them to gain less points and eventually lose.

I also really like the "broken coin" effect. Giving players the option to pay the fee OR simply take debt tokens is awesome. I'm glad it doesn't work for any other forced loss of coins, but loading up on the black cards for the sake of starving opponents is fun.

My only gripe is that the "free" leader that came with the Leaders expansion was later added as an actual leader in Cities. I wish they wouldn't have done that.

I loved 7 Wonders from the get-go. The odd thing is that despite this, I couldn't imagine playing the game without the expansions. To me, THAT is the definition of a great, meaningful expansion to a game.
 
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Scott Douglass
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My favorite starting resource is glass, but that's just because I like Alexandria. If I was going to choose a starting resource without any information about the rest of my wonder, I'd choose a basic resource, but which one isn't nearly as clear. I'd probably go with a wood. That lets me build the Stockade in age 1, and it gives me access to wood for the Temple, Marketplace, Stables, Statue, and Archery Range in age 2.
 
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