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Pirates vs. Dinosaurs» Forums » General

Subject: Everything that is wrong with Kickstarter. rss

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Ryan Thompson

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When some plastic T&A strapped on a game that isn't finished or fully play tested can pull in $1.6 million but a game from a known designer with a proven track record of not just good but GREAT games can't even break $22,000.00 all I can do is...
shake

/facepalm.
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Mark Evans
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It's worse than that. This is only the tip of the iceberg.
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Jonathan Franklin
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Mark, What do you mean?
 
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Danilo Festa
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Kassanova wrote:
When some plastic T&A strapped on a game that isn't finished or fully play tested can pull in $1.6 million but a game from a known designer with a proven track record of not just good but GREAT games can't even break $22,000.00 all I can do is...
shake

/facepalm.


I agree
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Stephan Rothschuh
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Kassanova wrote:
but a game from a known designer with a proven track record of not just good but GREAT games can't even break $22,000.00

If they told us how the game actually works, things might change. Right now, all we have to go on is a bunch of images and the disigner's name ...
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Kevin Seachrist
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Celtic Joker wrote:
Kassanova wrote:
but a game from a known designer with a proven track record of not just good but GREAT games can't even break $22,000.00

If they told us how the game actually works, things might change. Right now, all we have to go on is a bunch of images and the disigner's name ...


That. I was looking for a formal rules PDF. The artwork looks great, and card interactions looked like they had some potential, but I didn't get any real feel for the game, or if each game would offer sufficient variety from the previous to make me want to play again.

Regarding the OP's main point: in a culture where Jersey Shore and Honey Boo Boo are runaway hits, you're actually questioning why lowbrow stuff is "popular"? Never underestimate the "voting" power of the least common denominator.
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Tiamat
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I do think this needed plastic T&A stretch goals.

The intro was confusing for me though. It says a 5yo created it. That could be a Ctrl+W right there. Then it says Frank Branham couldn't get the design right. And then finally it says Richard Launius made it. Unfortunately I did not know who that was. You have to keep reading pretty far to get the Arkham Horror connection spelled out for you
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Joe Bowers
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One thing I notice is that people like to sponsor games that give them lots of special promo cards, figures, and bits. PvD looks like it comes with only 2 promo cards. I did the 6 pack for $220, that's only $36 per game which I'm sure you can resell for $45-50 each right off the bat, or would make nice trades.
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Jonathan Franklin
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I do think having a 5 year old mentioned in the lead sentence gets people thinking that this is a light dice game, which is reinforced with paragraphs about

Take-that - "In the game, these are Encounter cards that you play on other pirates--that's right...you don't randomly run into T-Rex. Your friend's going to sic him on you" - you might want to pitch it more towards the Munchkin audience (which probably has no idea who Frank and Richard are) and this game is not a natural match for the Arkham Horror audience.

Frustration - "When that happens, you roll the dice and see if you drive the dino off or if he ate some of your crew. It's tiresome to have to go back to the ship for more men, but sometimes, that's the breaks." This makes it sound like a total uchronic luckfest.

Say what you want, but this reads like a light family game, whereas KD:M reads like an adult/older teenager game - It is possible that KS is better for items targeted at people who have credit cards rather than their parents.
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Rob Bell
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Kickstarter can probably be accused of a lot of things, but the failure of this project to fund at %200+ is most likely the fault of a poorly implemented and rushed campaign - it is in no way the fault of Kickstarter.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/904046/why-is-this-game-not-...
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Ryan Thompson

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Rykaar wrote:


Regarding the OP's main point: in a culture where Jersey Shore and Honey Boo Boo are runaway hits, you're actually questioning why lowbrow stuff is "popular"? Never underestimate the "voting" power of the least common denominator.


I think this just about sums it all up, sadly.

I am still bitter about it all though especially since the Pirate vs. Dinosaur Kickstarter actually does seem to list more game mechanics than the T&A game... Oh well at least in November we will see if it lives up to its million dollar hype...
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Helmut Hohberger
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Kassanova wrote:
When some plastic T&A strapped on a game that isn't finished or fully play tested can pull in $1.6 million

What's this in reference to?
 
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Tiamat
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He means this

ACT QUICKLY IF YOU WANT IT only 3 hours left
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/poots/kingdom-death-mons...
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David Boeren
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I won't back anything that doesn't post at least draft rules.

Or anything that goes out of its way to make me think that it's a random take-that game.

Maybe it isn't, maybe there's real depth to it, but I'll never know without those rules and frankly they probably haven't hooked me enough to want to read them if they DID post them. I guess that's the downside of making yourself look like a random slap-fest of take-that cardplay.

If it makes you feel better, I didn't back the T&A game either.
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Mark Evans
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grandslam wrote:
Mark, What do you mean?


If I get real specific this thread could get sent to the politics forum. Reference the movie Idiocracy and extrapolate from there.
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Smurf-o-Deth
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Sounds like a retooling and relaunch is in order: Pirates Hawt vs. Dinosaurs Bewbz. Cha-ching!
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Richard Launius
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I responded to an earlier post and shared my viewpoint as well as defined the game a little broader, so I doubt there is much I can add here. But I will state that people are entitled to their opinions regardless of what they may be about this game, the KS program specifically or in general, and whether they choose to support the project or not. Therefore, the same should go for me as far as my opinion.

1) This is an excellent game and not comparable to Munchkin (no criticism of Munchkin here - it is a great selling game), but because you play cards on other players does not make it just a take that encounter game. The game has many strategic opportunities and, to some extent an economic engine (outfitting, envoys for more pirates, etc...) that drives much of the strategy the players use. Yes, it has dice and a light theme, but I prefer to think of it as more of a fantastic and sci-fi theme than light.

2) Yes, the introduction from Jim mentioned he wanted to create a game in honor of his son playing with pirates and dinosaurs as a 5 year old. This was a nostalgic reference and in no way a reflection of the game play. I suspect most people know that. Having grown children myself, I understand the nostalgic gesture, but beyond the gaming including combat with pirates and dinosaurs, there is nothing related to the 5 year old's play.

3) The timing of the KS program has not been great, the initial information, rewards and even communication may not have been what people wanted and therefore it looks as if the project will fail on KS. I am not sure that is a bad thing as I know this game will get published one way or another because it is a really fun game to play. That is the one thing I will underscore here, the game is fun, really fun and if you play games to have fun I think you will probably like it (believe it or not everyone does not play games to have fun - I have learned over the years that people play for different reasons).

4) The game went on KickStarted because there appears to be a trend in the industry for companies (not just start up new designers and businessmen) to get funding on KS rather than a P500 process. I believe game companies are divided about using KS as it is a different process for them and has a learning curve, but if the industry trend is moving toward KS many will move that way and for those that do, the first time can be a learning process and I think it has been for Jim. He has tried to do things right and at the same time get the project moving because it has been delayed a long time awaiting art. I think the artwork and components are fantastic and they have been posted as the KS campaign progressed, but it does not appear that theses actions will get us there. I hope we move the project needle significantly in the next 5 days to the goal, but it will take a lot of support at this point and not likely.

5) It is my opinion, and you can take it for what it is worth (remembering I accept your opinions) that some of you are being a little harsh toward Jim (the owner of Jolly Rogers) in your comments. I know you may not mean to be, but when I read the some of the criticisms it looks like piling on at times for the errors of the campaign. Now, I grant you that the discussion is why is the KS campaign failing and the responses are reasonable in that context, but I know Jim is doing what he can during a hectic time for him and that as his first campaign on KS he went in not as aware as he should have been on what the expectations were by the supports of KS campaigns and has worked to explain and update as best he could. One person on another post made the statement that it appears the publisher does not believe in the game and posted it on KS to drop it - that is totally untrue. Jim believes in the project and is too honorable of a person and businessman to ever do something like that.

6) It took a long time, but I believe the art and components of this game to be great. It was this delay to get this art that prompted Jim to go to KS over the holidays and that appears to be a bad decision but I appreciate him for it all the same as I know he did it because he felt bad for me about how long it has taken to complete the art and pre-press stuff. Keep in mind, most KS programs do not have the final art and ready to press so you get it in 2 - 3 months, most are like a year (and that is a year that they have your money) so I hope people appreciate the commitment Jim has made here, at least if you have supported the campaign.

Back to the heart of this discussion, good games and bad games have been funded on KickStarter at various levels and I suspect good games and bad games have not been funded. In any regard, it is a new process for companies to use and there is a learning curve. As for me, I have stated before I prefer my games not be KS, but this is actually my 3rd to be on it and based on what I have seen, the non-establishment game companies handle KS better than the established ones - at least that is my assessment regarding my games to date. While I hope we get commitment to reach our goal on KS, I am prepared for the campaign to fail and look forward to working with Jim to get the game out through other options as I know he is committed to the publication of the project.

To those of you that are supporting the game, you have my commitment to see that we get it published and that it is a top notch product. For those of you that have decided not to support the game, I do thank you for your consideration and hope you find the games that bring you the most enjoyment this coming year.

Richard
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Brian Cwikla

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dboeren wrote:
I won't back anything that doesn't post at least draft rules.


Yeah, like Sedition Wars. I was wondering how that got so popular when no draft rules were ever released, people wanted them, and the designers refused to release for blatantly dumb reasons. Crazy. Yet I backed. Sigh. I'm hoping I don't regret that.

I did back Kingdom because of gameplay and pretty much for that reason alone. Yeah, the sculpts are cool but that's not enough to entice me. Could care less about the T&A myself, but know that's fun for other people.

With Pirates and Dinosaurs, what little I am able to glean from it, I can't tell if its a game for me so I'm waiting for release and to read some reviews first.
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Jonathan Franklin
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Richard,

Could you point us to where there is more concrete information about the game?

I found the Beta rules are here: http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/64406/beta-rules-for-pirat...

You might want to link to them from the KS page.

Even adding Age 11+ and 90 minutes to the top of the KS page would go a long way towards redefining the game in the potential pledgers' minds.

Can you use the next few days to create a brief unpolished video and help us better understand the game? For example, is it heavier or lighter than a competitive Elder Sign would be?

How much character customization is there? Do the starting pirates have special powers that differentiate them from each other?

Could you describe a few strategic decision points within the game, how they could be addressed, and the possible ramifications?

I came to this discussion with no knowledge of the game other than that you designed it and that Jolly Roger is doing it (and I have four of his games and would like to try Founding Fathers).

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J Emmett
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CaptainCosmic wrote:
No idea what the OP is talking about, but I do know that none of it is Kickstarter's fault. KS is just a platform.


Yup, if there's a problem, it's not Kickstarter, it's people—whether the acumen of those creating their campaigns, or the taste of those putting up the money.

The fact is, this is actually everything that's right with Kickstarter: someone with an idea can present it directly to the public to gauge interest and (hopefully) generate capital.

For everyone else, there are still the traditional routes to publishing.

Sometimes an audience finds a questionable board game and it makes a million bucks (note: Tomorrow has not made a million bucks ). Sometimes a resurrected classic card wargame blows the roof off. Sometimes a few thousand people get an insane deal on hundreds of miniatures. Sometimes a game doesn't catch on, for whatever reason.
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Josh Cappel
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A proper ruleset has been posted and is pending approval from bgg admins.

~J
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Joshua Harris
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I am in on the kickstarter, and will be first in line to pre-order a direct copy if need be. (I was already planning on doing that before the kickstarter jumped off anyway.) Jolly Roger Games has never left me with broken or missing bits. Josh Cappel's art has never disappointed. Richard Launius has never left me with rules questions. Their commitment to their games and customers is pretty outstanding (as anyone who has dealt with them in the past can easily attest) These are the guys who deserve my money.

Side Note: I love T&A horror minis as much as the next guy, but I'd rather play with dinosaurs and pirates than weird breast-golem-demon things. Not that the minis are't amazing pieces of art... but I doubt anyone will be smiling while playing that game. And if they ARE smiling, I bet it's one of those creepy smiles that make you nervous.
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Jonathan Franklin
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I realized a central question for some here, including me, is "When you play a dinosaur on someone, what is the basis for your decision? Is it bashing the leader or are there other strategic elements in the decision?"

Is it a catch-up mechanism or is it a way to have the players be the game (as in DM-less dungeon crawls)?

For example, from my perspective, in Farmageddon, it is fine when playing with 2 players, but unfun to bash specific other players when playing with more than 2.
 
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Richard Launius
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The final rules (I guess I should state almost final as there are a few things still be added) will most likely be posted onto BGG today. I think they will best reflect the game play and quality of the game and I think they are what you are looking for.

As for the other items you brought up - let me answer each as best I can:

Can you use the next few days to create a brief unpolished video and help us better understand the game? For example, is it heavier or lighter than a competitive Elder Sign would be?

Actually I can not do this. I do not have the prototype, it is with the publisher and too massive fr me to recreate on my end. Beyond that, marketing type support like this are the publisher's responsibility and decision. While I agree that a video would help some people to decide to support the KS program, I think at this point Jim is right in his statement that the cost would most likely not get us to the funding (in other words the video drive enough sales).

How much character customization is there? Do the starting pirates have special powers that differentiate them from each other?

Each Pirate captain's first mate provides a different skill, as does his relic. Additionally, each player has an identical deck of items to outfit their crew, but there are many combinations so each will be different. If you have played my games before think Character Skills and starting items from Arkham Horror or Hero skills from Defenders of the Realm.

Could you describe a few strategic decision points within the game, how they could be addressed, and the possible ramifications?

Sure, one of the first is how to outfit your crew. If you take a cannon you are making it pretty clear that not only do you expect to blow up a lot of rampaging dinos, the time you lose exploring (and dragging that heavy cannon) is going to be made up when you are in the same area as another pirate without a cannon (I suspect your strategy would be attack at every reasonable opportunity to deplete the crew of the other captains). Next you decide on the other weapons your crew will take ashore; Swords 7 Muskets or Pistols & Pikes - each with a different combat strategy. Finally you choose the rest of your equipment from your items deck (all player decks of items are identical but lots of choices) Then there is the decision making as to where to explore and the problems of other pirates on the same area (could be a benefit in that you have a lot of cards that you can only play if sharing island area with another player, or that you have no cannon and the location would many have gone to has a player with a cannon itching for a fight. You also have to choose what to play and what to keep out of card play - the most dangerous encounters to play on other offer the most benefits in specials if you keep them and play on yourself. I try to give a lot of choices for the players to make and keep the to theme and rapid turns.

Hope this helps,

Richard


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Y. Chung
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How much of a decrease in component quality will there be, if the KS is not funded? Jim mentioned that there would be some cost cutting on this front. I just feel like we could have gotten a higher quality game for the same price, with a properly managed KS campaign...
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