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Subject: Clarification regarding clarification of Red Herrings rss

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Hi there,

You may have seen me grousing around the forums a bit about the question of exactly what was meant by Lukas's clarification here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/10056005#10056005

IirionClaus suggested I mail in my question and I got a really quick reply! Here is our conversation:

DrTall wrote:
Hello,

I've seen it quoted that Red Herrings makes stealing agendas optional instead of mandatory, even for Runners with the ability to pay the extra 5 credits. But I have not seen if this ruling means:

1. Only the specific card Red Herrings is ruled to make the agenda stealing optional, but other cards continue to work as they are printed (for example, Fetal AI does *not* make the stealing optional).
2. Any effect which attaches an additional cost to stealing an agenda makes stealing optional (that is, Fetal AI also makes the stealing optional).
3. Any effect which attaches an additional cost to *any* mandatory action makes that mandatory action optional (for example, if an effect requires the Runner to pay 1 credit to draw a card, Wyldside's effect would become optional instead of mandatory)

Thanks!
Sean


Lukas Litzsinger wrote:
Thanks for the inquiry.

Paying the costs on both Red Herrings and Fetal AI are optional. Both require the payment of an additional cost, and you can choose not to pay this cost. The rules say you cannot decline to steal the agenda, but they do not say that you must steal the agenda, if able.

Option #3 is too vague to really answer without an example, since so much depends on the definition of a mandatory action. I do not think that WyldSide's ability would ever become optional in the situation you describe, though the language of the interacting card would be important. If the Runner had to pay an additional cost of 1 credit in order to draw each card, then the order of resolution would be as follows:
WyldSide triggers, and the Runner loses a click.
WyldSide attempts to draw 2 cards (1 of 2); the Runner must pay 1 credit to draw the first card or it is not drawn.
Wyldside attempts to draw 2 cards (2 of 2); the Runner must pay 1 credit to draw the second card or it is not drawn.

Hope that helps,


DrTall wrote:
A quick follow-up question based on your response if you don't mind...

Is it fair to resolve Forged Activation Orders as:

* Runner plays Forged Activation Orders, targeting an unrezzed Archer.
* Corp "must either rez that ice or trash it."
* Corp elects to rez the ICE.
* Archer's text says "As an additional cost to rez Archer, the Corp must forfeit an agenda."
* The Corp declines to pay this additional cost, leaving Archer unrezzed.
* Forged Activation Orders is now fully resolved, with Archer still unrezzed and untrashed.

?

Thanks,


Lukas Litzsinger wrote:
Here's how it works:

1. The Runner plays Forged Activation Orders. The Corp must rez the ice or trash it.
2a. The Corp chooses to rez the ice. As a part of this choice, he must pay 4 credits and forfeit an agenda.
or 2b. The Corp chooses to trash the ice.

Hope that helps,


My takeaway here is that in general you can decline to pay additional costs attached to things which would otherwise be free and/or mandatory. But when offered a choice you don't get to "play dumb" and agree to do something only to back out of it by not paying the additional costs.

Thoughts?
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Bart Rachemoss
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DrTall wrote:
My takeaway here is that in general you can decline to pay additional costs attached to things which would otherwise be free and/or mandatory. But when offered a choice you don't get to "play dumb" and agree to do something only to back out of it by not paying the additional costs.

Correct. No playing dumb here.
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Benedetto Loffredo
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Here is the answer I've just received:

Quote:
Red Herrings requires the payment of an additional cost, and you can choose not to pay this cost. The rules say you cannot decline to steal the agenda, but they do not say that you MUST steal the agenda, if able. So the Runner is not declining to steal the agenda, but he is declining to pay the additional cost, and therefore the agenda is not stolen. This also applies to Fetal AI.

Feel free to post my answers in online communities as official answers, but these answers are not as 'official' as the ones that appear in the FAQ, which are written to be more technical.

Hope this helps,

--
Lukas Litzsinger
Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games


Edit: The crucial poit is the fact that there ins't a MUST for stealing agenda, but there is a MUST in forfeiting agenda for Archer...
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Tucker Taylor
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Sportacus wrote:
Here is the answer I've just received:

Quote:
Red Herrings requires the payment of an additional cost, and you can choose not to pay this cost. The rules say you cannot decline to steal the agenda, but they do not say that you MUST steal the agenda, if able. So the Runner is not declining to steal the agenda, but he is declining to pay the additional cost, and therefore the agenda is not stolen. This also applies to Fetal AI.


Edit: The crucial poit is the fact that there ins't a MUST for stealing agenda, but there is a MUST in forfeiting agenda for Archer...

That is some serious hair-splitting between "must" and "may not decline."
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Scott C
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JazzFish wrote:
That is some serious hair-splitting between "must" and "may not decline."

Not when you consider them as game terms, rather than dictionary ones.
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Brian
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Kaffis wrote:
JazzFish wrote:
That is some serious hair-splitting between "must" and "may not decline."

Not when you consider them as game terms, rather than dictionary ones.


Except Must is certainly not a game term in the rulebook.

Unlike say "Cannot" in the Star Wars LCG.
 
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Tala Mare
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The Archer thing technically

FAO says rez or trash

You say, Okay I will rez
Then you decline to pay the additional cost, which is perfectly acceptable, you are not forced to pay the additional cost, but since you didnt it is not rezzed

after you are done deciding FAO checks - Is it Rezzed or Not?

If its not its trashed


Let me rephrase

You can choose not to pay the additional cost to Rez Archer
but if you do not pay the additional cost, it is NOT REZZED

FAO does a state check after you have finished deciding
Is it rezzed or not?
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Steven Tu
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Archer's choice must take place allay once, it's not a two stage choice. The choice is whether to Rez or not, but whether to pay the additional cost or not. Paying the additional cost is part of choosing to Rez. It's pretty simple.

Stealing an agenda is a choice whether to pay the additional cost or not. That's the choice, not whether you steal or not. Stealing or not is a byproduct of the first choice. A cost and result.

Lukas has made the ruling, why dispute it?
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BT Carpenter
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Anyone thrown the TMI / FAO monkey wrench yet?
 
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I'm not sure anyone is trying to dispute the ruling, but simply to understand it. I think you hit the crux of it though, which is that the process of rezzing the card is atomic and not two parts. You can't both decide to rez and decline to pay costs needed to rez.

So FAO is not "double checking" you, it's just that electing to rez implies a election to pay all costs needed to rez.
 
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What is the confusion about TMI and FAO? Once TMI is rezzed you've done yourdduty by FAO and it doesn't seem relevant to me that an effect may derezit later, eeven if later is really soon. In TMIs case we know it is rezzed because the trace trigger uses that language
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Tala Mare
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Tuism wrote:
Archer's choice must take place allay once, it's not a two stage choice. The choice is whether to Rez or not, but whether to pay the additional cost or not. Paying the additional cost is part of choosing to Rez. It's pretty simple.

Stealing an agenda is a choice whether to pay the additional cost or not. That's the choice, not whether you steal or not. Stealing or not is a byproduct of the first choice. A cost and result.

Lukas has made the ruling, why dispute it?


My point was, it doesnt matters if its a 1 stage choice or a 10 stage choice

The point is FAO doesnt check it until you finished your choice, and if you choose to rez archer but if in the end you decide to not pay the additional cost to rez archer, and thus Archer is not rezzed, then its trash

and I am not disputing it

Also FAO vs TMI, TMI says 'when you rez', which means you technically rezzed it, fulfilling FAO's condition
 
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Steven Tu
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Talamare wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Archer's choice must take place allay once, it's not a two stage choice. The choice is whether to Rez or not, but whether to pay the additional cost or not. Paying the additional cost is part of choosing to Rez. It's pretty simple.

Stealing an agenda is a choice whether to pay the additional cost or not. That's the choice, not whether you steal or not. Stealing or not is a byproduct of the first choice. A cost and result.

Lukas has made the ruling, why dispute it?


My point was, it doesnt matters if its a 1 stage choice or a 10 stage choice

The point is FAO doesnt check it until you finished your choice, and if you choose to rez archer but if in the end you decide to not pay the additional cost to rez archer, and thus Archer is not rezzed, then its trash

and I am not disputing it

Also FAO vs TMI, TMI says 'when you rez', which means you technically rezzed it, fulfilling FAO's condition


Nowhere does Archer say "if you don't pay the additional cost, it's trashed". You simply cannot rez archer if you don't forfeit an agenda, it's a cost. You can't try and play an operation from your hand, then elect not to pay the cost, and trash the card. It simply doesn't work that way.

In the case of Red Herring, the runner hasn't "decided" to do something - the game is at a forked state, therefore the runner may elect to pay or not. In fact if the runner is mandated to pay, the game may easily end up in a broken state that he must pay but cannot.
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Andy Mills
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Tuism wrote:

Nowhere does Archer say "if you don't pay the additional cost, it's trashed". You simply cannot rez archer if you don't forfeit an agenda, it's a cost. You can't try and play an operation from your hand, then elect not to pay the cost, and trash the card. It simply doesn't work that way.


Archer doesn't mandate that, but Forged Activation Orders DOES: "Oh, you're not rezzing Archer? Then you're trashing it."
 
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Double Plus Undead
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I don't think that the Archer vs. FAO situation is confusing at all, if you look at "Forfeit an agenda" as not a condition of rezzing, but as part of the cost to rez. Suppose FAO was targeting an ice with a cost of 5 credits (say, Ichi 1.0), and the corp only had 4 credits. No one would think that the corp could flip the card up and say "Oh, I'm going to rez it...but I only have 4 credits"---and then leave it unrezzed and untrashed.
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Steven Tu
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manydills wrote:
Tuism wrote:

Nowhere does Archer say "if you don't pay the additional cost, it's trashed". You simply cannot rez archer if you don't forfeit an agenda, it's a cost. You can't try and play an operation from your hand, then elect not to pay the cost, and trash the card. It simply doesn't work that way.


Archer doesn't mandate that, but Forged Activation Orders DOES: "Oh, you're not rezzing Archer? Then you're trashing it."


I'm not sure what you mean, cos I agree that FAO mandates that the corp pays 4 and forfeits an agenda to Rez it or trashes it
 
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Andy Mills
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I don't think the Archer vs. FAO situation is confusing either. I think, in general, no one is confused by it, and we're all in agreement.

Tuism wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean, cos I agree that FAO mandates that the corp pays 4 and forfeits an agenda to Rez it or trashes it


We're definitely saying the same thing. I agree that it's not a multi-stage process. Archer costs 4 credits and an agenda to rez. If you can't or won't pay that, then you can't even TRY to rez it. If you want to get really picky, showing the Runner that the ice you're trashing IS an Archer is an illegal play.
 
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Tala Mare
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Tuism wrote:
Talamare wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Archer's choice must take place allay once, it's not a two stage choice. The choice is whether to Rez or not, but whether to pay the additional cost or not. Paying the additional cost is part of choosing to Rez. It's pretty simple.

Stealing an agenda is a choice whether to pay the additional cost or not. That's the choice, not whether you steal or not. Stealing or not is a byproduct of the first choice. A cost and result.

Lukas has made the ruling, why dispute it?


My point was, it doesnt matters if its a 1 stage choice or a 10 stage choice

The point is FAO doesnt check it until you finished your choice, and if you choose to rez archer but if in the end you decide to not pay the additional cost to rez archer, and thus Archer is not rezzed, then its trash

and I am not disputing it

Also FAO vs TMI, TMI says 'when you rez', which means you technically rezzed it, fulfilling FAO's condition


Nowhere does Archer say "if you don't pay the additional cost, it's trashed". You simply cannot rez archer if you don't forfeit an agenda, it's a cost. You can't try and play an operation from your hand, then elect not to pay the cost, and trash the card. It simply doesn't work that way.


What the **** are you talking about

I seriously think you are noncomprehending me, but I am going to drop it because I honestly have no idea what the **** you are talking about anymore.
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Steven Tu
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Talamare wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Talamare wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Archer's choice must take place allay once, it's not a two stage choice. The choice is whether to Rez or not, but whether to pay the additional cost or not. Paying the additional cost is part of choosing to Rez. It's pretty simple.

Stealing an agenda is a choice whether to pay the additional cost or not. That's the choice, not whether you steal or not. Stealing or not is a byproduct of the first choice. A cost and result.

Lukas has made the ruling, why dispute it?


My point was, it doesnt matters if its a 1 stage choice or a 10 stage choice

The point is FAO doesnt check it until you finished your choice, and if you choose to rez archer but if in the end you decide to not pay the additional cost to rez archer, and thus Archer is not rezzed, then its trash

and I am not disputing it

Also FAO vs TMI, TMI says 'when you rez', which means you technically rezzed it, fulfilling FAO's condition


Nowhere does Archer say "if you don't pay the additional cost, it's trashed". You simply cannot rez archer if you don't forfeit an agenda, it's a cost. You can't try and play an operation from your hand, then elect not to pay the cost, and trash the card. It simply doesn't work that way.


What the **** are you talking about

I seriously think you are noncomprehending me, but I am going to drop it because I honestly have no idea what the **** you are talking about anymore.


We are in agreement, just saying it in a different way.

I was saying that there's not a separate choice for paying Archer's "additional cost" as it is part of the original choice - pay to rez, or not pay and trash
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