Brian Sinclair
United States
Grand Rapids
Michigan
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I had a situation where the British take Sacket's Harbour in the last turn of the first half of 1812. The US units retreat to Cape Vincent (US units still in supply) and control Lake Ontario.

Now the US goes first in the 2nd half of the turn and has their control marker in Lake Ontario. Does the marker alone create the British Units in Sacket's Harbour to be out of supply and not be able to retreat? And if this isn't the case would taking the "free" naval return to the lake count has happening before the card play (I think this) to cause the British to be out of supply?

Using the same situation above, is the Sacket's Harbour fort built at the end of the 1st half of 1812 even if the British control the space (I think yes)? Now, I know Chauncey and the 2 schooners can come in if the British don't have a force value of the space. In this case is the value of a flipped counter included?

Thanks for the help.
 
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Mark Evans
United States
Berlin
New Hampshire
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I'll offer my opinion on this until someone of greater authority arrives.



Brian Sinclair wrote:
I had a situation where the British take Sacket's Harbour in the last turn of the first half of 1812. The US units retreat to Cape Vincent (US units still in supply) and control Lake Ontario.


I assume here that the US controls Alexandria, Rome and Sandy Creek as well.

Quote:
Now the US goes first in the 2nd half of the turn and has their control marker in Lake Ontario. Does the marker alone create the British Units in Sacket's Harbour to be out of supply and not be able to retreat?


Reading 11.44 I would say 'no'. It seems like the control marker doesn't control the lake. There must be US naval unit in the Lake Control box of Lake Ontario to block British lake supply.

Quote:
And if this isn't the case would taking the "free" naval return to the lake count has happening before the card play (I think this) to cause the British to be out of supply?


In 1812 the US has the first card play, so depending on how you interpret 11.23 with the clarifications that have been provided, it would seem that the US could send his ships into Lake Ontario for free during his strategy card play.

Quote:
Using the same situation above, is the Sacket's Harbour fort built at the end of the 1st half of 1812 even if the British control the space (I think yes)?


Wow, I assume so.


Quote:
Now, I know Chauncey and the 2 schooners can come in if the British don't have a force value of the space. In this case is the value of a flipped counter included?


The combat factors to control a town are a cumulative total, so I don't think it matters whether they are at reduced strength or not, only the combat strength matters.

 
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Gilbert Collins
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
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Mark has answered mainly correctly but some of the answers are in response to incorrect play in the first place. Let me try to clarify.

The 'control' marker IS NEVER used to establish control during the standard turns of the game. It is only a 'marker' to remind players WHO controlled the lake before the Winter turn. Players should NOT BE using the marker when their fleets stop in the Lake Control Box. Only SHIPS establish control in the lake control box. NOT, the marker. By putting the marker on the board when you shouldn't will only lead to confusion later on as witnessed in your game. With no US ships in the lake control box, NOBODY controls the lake and thus US and British troops can trace supply from it.

I don't understand why players think that they can place your ships 'free' on the lake during a summer-autumn turn. You definitely cannot do that, you must burn a card to put them there. ONLY in the Spring AND IF YOU CONTROLLED THE LAKE LAST YEAR do you get this free move. I'm wondering how many players are getting this wrong. You can QUIT the lake for free but you can't get back onto it 'free' unless that specific case is in play.

I could have written paragraphs of rules on the capture of Kingston and Sackets Harbour but I wanted to keep it simple. And in time, players will tend to hold these places as mentioned in the designers notes.

For simplicity sake, the fort at Sackets Harbour and Kingston just 'come into being' no matter who controls them. I'm not 100% comfortable with this but it shouldn't happen very often with experienced players. The logic here would be that any fortifications commenced would be completed or upgraded by the capturing party.

Flipped units make no difference as Mark pointed out, it is the strength that matters.
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Mark Evans
United States
Berlin
New Hampshire
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Thanks for clarifying that.
 
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Mike Szarka
Canada
Oshawa
Ontario
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When it is your turn to send a VASSAL move, the wait is excruciating. When it's my turn, well, I've been busy.
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The US lost Sacket's as well in Spring 1812 in my first solo game, and when I saw what a mess it created I decided I would never let it happen in a real game!
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Gilbert Collins
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
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Sackets Harbour and Kingston
Mike, I sympathize. In the early days when we were first getting a handle on the strategy on that front we all lost Kingston or Sackets Harbour. And paid the penalty!

Then we knew why both sides made sure that their respective naval bases never were captured.

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