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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Caltrops and fly rss

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Sven Siemen
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Hey Guys,
today we've had a discussion about the skill caltrops.

In my opinion (and i've read it in some descent forum) it can not be used, if a monster have the "fly" ability.
The monster flys over the hero and the space and if i try it with logic, caltrops were like spikes, which were thrown on the floor.
So it would be weired to stop flying monsters.

With the skill "fly" i also can ignore water, etc. cause i fly over it - also it should be the same with caltrops!?

What do you think?
 
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Darren Nakamura
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I think that thematically you wouldn't expect Caltrops to work against a monster with Fly, but mechanically there is no text supporting that.

Caltrops is neither terrain nor a figure. Fly says you ignore terrain effects and figures. Fly does not ignore Caltrops.

House rule it if you'd like; it's one of the weird things that come out of rules as written.
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Justin B
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The creatures that have Fly are Hybrid Sentinels, Razorwings, and Shades. Given their art, I figured they more, "Hover at will", but have to land in order to attack or perform actions. Thinking about it like this, Caltrops should be able to affect them, because it's something that the thief has either hidden, or throws at the last moment so as to hit the monster. It could even be a simple ball and chain thrown at the creature's legs or wings! There are lots of ways to reconcile the abilities, thematically!
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Mercuric wrote:
It could even be a simple ball and chain thrown at the creature's legs or wings! There are lots of ways to reconcile the abilities, thematically!


None of those really gel with what caltrops actually are though...

 
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Cal Vin
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Funny, a few months ago we had exactly the same problem. We played some demo rounds of LAIR OF THE WYRM at a convention.
The OL annoyed us with his damn Hybrid Sentinels and we try to stop this creatures because they have always surrounded us.

So our thief try to use caltrops and and there was a considerable discussion about this skill.

Since we were at a boardgame convention, there were people from Heidelbär and FFG present so we ask for their opinion. Their explanation was that flying can not be interrupted. The flying creature does not enters a space when it moves, it flys above. Because of this the OL figures with fly also ignores terrain and obstacles. They told us that with the second expansion it will be more clear because there will be some new monsters with the tumble skill, which will works with caltrops.
In my opinion this makes the FLY skill very powerful but they say that only a few creatures have this skill (yeah, but Dragons do not have it - understand!)

After that explanation we realized that the dungeons are all without a blanket, otherwise the monster could hardly fly so high ^^
 
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Robin REEVE
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Dexter345 wrote:
Mercuric wrote:
It could even be a simple ball and chain thrown at the creature's legs or wings! There are lots of ways to reconcile the abilities, thematically!


None of those really gel with what caltrops actually are though...

Well, still don't try to throw it at my face !
I am quite sure that it would hurt a lot ! whistle
 
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Aequius Stronghand
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It would be the same with the "Guard"-skill of the knight, i guess?!?
 
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Darren Nakamura
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DJCalvin wrote:
Funny, a few months ago we had exactly the same problem. We played some demo rounds of LAIR OF THE WYRM at a convention.
The OL annoyed us with his damn Hybrid Sentinels and we try to stop this creatures because they have always surrounded us.

So our thief try to use caltrops and and there was a considerable discussion about this skill.

Since we were at a boardgame convention, there were people from Heidelbär and FFG present so we ask for their opinion. Their explanation was that flying can not be interrupted. The flying creature does not enters a space when it moves, it flys above. Because of this the OL figures with fly also ignores terrain and obstacles. They told us that with the second expansion it will be more clear because there will be some new monsters with the tumble skill, which will works with caltrops.
In my opinion this makes the FLY skill very powerful but they say that only a few creatures have this skill (yeah, but Dragons do not have it - understand!)

After that explanation we realized that the dungeons are all without a blanket, otherwise the monster could hardly fly so high ^^


I'm not sure I'd take this as official word unless I heard it from Justin Kemppainen. The people that go to trade shows aren't typically the people in charge of the content, and I half expect that the ruling given there was done on the fly by intuition. Intuitively, Caltrops should not affect a monster with Fly, however as written there is nothing that supports that viewpoint.
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Sean Houston
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And there's already monsters with tumble? It's called Scamper.
 
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Johan Jönsson
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Dexter345 wrote:

Caltrops is neither terrain nor a figure. Fly says you ignore terrain effects and figures. Fly does not ignore Caltrops.

Flying: "It must end his movement in an empty space following normal movement rules"

Caltrops:"when a monster moves into an empty space adjacent to you.."

So my ruling would be that Caltrops could be used when a Flying monster ends his movement adjacent to you (as it is probably attacking you, it is too bad it doesn´t get stunned and only immobilized)

p.s.
One should also remember that caltrops is the name of the skill, and not an item. I think skill names should be read with some imagination. e.g. bushwack probably works even indoors. They could have choosen a better name though.
d.s.
 
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Sean Houston
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Glom wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:

Caltrops is neither terrain nor a figure. Fly says you ignore terrain effects and figures. Fly does not ignore Caltrops.

Flying: "It must end his movement in an empty space following normal movement rules"


This portion simply exists as a boiler-plate explanation of what happens with figures that can move through occupied spaces that normally can't be moved through. You shouldn't draw any conclusions about fly's interaction with caltrops from this.
 
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DJ DJ
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Rules wrote:
Fly: This monster may ignore enemy figures and the effects of terrain while moving. It must end its movement in an empty space following normal movement rules.


My interpretation would be that he can ignore thief as thief is an enemy figure. So no skills that would interrupt a monster movement may be used by enemy figures (in this case -> heroes).

I guess it depends on how we interpret the 'ignore'...

Caltrops is not something that is placed on the board.

Second part is an indication that the monster can't ignore pit or lava if it ends its movement. So Flying monster ending its movement on lava would be dead. I would use the same for caltrops and allow using it when monster "lands".

 
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Darren Nakamura
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Ignoring a figure when considering movement is not the same as ignoring a figure's entire repertoire of abilities. It just means you can move through (or thematically in this case, over) figures that you would not otherwise be able to.
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DJ DJ
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Dexter345 wrote:
Ignoring a figure when considering movement is not the same as ignoring a figure's entire repertoire of abilities. It just means you can move through (or thematically in this case, over) figures that you would not otherwise be able to.


We do not know what ignore really means. There is already another wording used for what you describe. Descent in some places (like Goblin Archers ability or Thief's Tumble) uses "You may move through enemy figures.".

I'd interpret ignoring figure as something more than just "you may move through".

This thematically fits to flying over figures and ignoring something like Knight's Guard or Thief's Caltrops.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Releesha wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
Ignoring a figure when considering movement is not the same as ignoring a figure's entire repertoire of abilities. It just means you can move through (or thematically in this case, over) figures that you would not otherwise be able to.


We do not know what ignore really means. There is already another wording used for what you describe. Descent in some places (like Goblin Archers ability or Thief's Tumble) uses "You may move through enemy figures.".

I'd interpret ignoring figure as something more than just "you may move through".

This thematically fits to flying over figures and ignoring something like Knight's Guard or Thief's Caltrops.


Suppose there were Ranged interrupt attack (like Guard but not Melee). Would you suggest that shouldn't be allowed to work on monsters with Fly as well?

First Strike doesn't really work for this example because that is used as soon as the monster is activated, so it technically hasn't started moving yet.

Or how about this: a Melee monster with Fly activates, moves next to a Knight, then attacks. Presumably that monster had to get close enough to the Knight to hit him, so why not allow the Knight to hit back? Same with the Berserker and Counter Attack: a Melee monster with Fly moves, interrupts to attack, then continues movement. Why not let the Berserker Counter Attack here?
 
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DJ DJ
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Well, as I wrote, I'd consider finishing or interrupting movement as landing (as second sentence on Fly indicates) and in this case allow interrupting. Creature can ignore figures only when moving not when interrupting its move for an attack.

However you are right, I sent a question to FFG and got following response:

Q: Fly states that flying creature may ignore enemy figures.

Does ignore means the same as "moving through" or is it a broader term?

1) Can flying creature has its movement interrupted by skills like Knight's Guard or Thief's Caltrops or Wildlander's Nimble?
2) Does flying creature needs 2 movement points to end it's movement on the water?
3) Does flying creature takes 1 damage from lava when it lands on lava?
4) Is flying creature defeated when ending it's activation on lava?


Justin Kemppainen wrote:
Ignore means "moving through," in essence.

1) This does mean that yes, a flying figure may be interrupted by certain effects, (Guard, Caltrops, Nimble).

2/3/4) There is no distinction or definition of a flying monster "landing." Since flying has the "ignore" when the figure is moving, and water/pit/lava, effects trigger based upon moving and/or entering spaces, a flying figure would never have to use extra movement points or suffer damage for entering those spaces.

However: because secondary effects (speaking of pit spaces and lava spaces) trigger based upon other factors that are unrelated to a flying monster's movements, a flying monster that ends its activation in a lava space would be immediately defeated, and a flying monster that ends its activation in a pit must spend an action to climb out (or move out by some other means).
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Sam Blomberg
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Releesha wrote:
Well, as I wrote, I'd consider finishing or interrupting movement as landing (as second sentence on Fly indicates) and in this case allow interrupting. Creature can ignore figures only when moving not when interrupting its move for an attack.

However you are right, I sent a question to FFG and got following response:

Q: Fly states that flying creature may ignore enemy figures.

Does ignore means the same as "moving through" or is it a broader term?

1) Can flying creature has its movement interrupted by skills like Knight's Guard or Thief's Caltrops or Wildlander's Nimble?
2) Does flying creature needs 2 movement points to end it's movement on the water?
3) Does flying creature takes 1 damage from lava when it lands on lava?
4) Is flying creature defeated when ending it's activation on lava?


Justin Kemppainen wrote:
Ignore means "moving through," in essence.

1) This does mean that yes, a flying figure may be interrupted by certain effects, (Guard, Caltrops, Nimble).

2/3/4) There is no distinction or definition of a flying monster "landing." Since flying has the "ignore" when the figure is moving, and water/pit/lava, effects trigger based upon moving and/or entering spaces, a flying figure would never have to use extra movement points or suffer damage for entering those spaces.

However: because secondary effects (speaking of pit spaces and lava spaces) trigger based upon other factors that are unrelated to a flying monster's movements, a flying monster that ends its activation in a lava space would be immediately defeated, and a flying monster that ends its activation in a pit must spend an action to climb out (or move out by some other means).

Thanks Releesha! I'm adding it to the Unofficial FAQ now. Feel free to post this to the FFG Sez thread if you'd like at http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/863073/ffg-sez-thread-link-t...
 
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Robin REEVE
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Could be nice to add the answer in the "FFG sez" thread too.
 
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