Alex Rockwell
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I see people using Doppelganger all the time, because its new, in decks that should really be using Desperado. Very few decks that I see Doppelganger in should actually have it.

Here is why Desperado is just better.

Think about the following question: How many times do you want to run this turn? (Lets say that by ‘want to run’, we mean that you have that many worthwhile runs you can make, can afford, and will do something.

0: Neither console helps, no difference.
1: Desperado gains you $1. Doppelganger doesn’t help you because you only can do 1 run, so the bonus run is wasted.
2: Desperado gains you $2. Doppelganger gives you 1 Click. Which is better? Often it’s the $2. If you don’t want a free Opus usage, maybe the click, but its usually the $2.
3: Desperado gains you $3. Doppelganger gives you 1 click. Yep, I want the $3.
4: Desperado $4, Doppelganger 1 click.
Okay, so in a normal case, Desperado generally wins, with Doppelganger only being potentially better in the one case that you want to make two runs and clicks are worth more than $2 for you. Or if you want to make MORE runs than you have clicks during the turn.

In most normal use cases, Desperado is just plain better

Okay, lets look at specific niche uses where we need the click.

1) You are trying to play more than one Notoriety in one turn. Yes, Doppelganger saves you a huge amount of effort here. Its totally worth it.
Notoriety deck? Please play that Doppelganger, it’s a great combo.
2) Your plan is to Vamp away all their money, and then crush them so hard with a Medium while they are broke, and you need that extra run way more than you need $4 for this turn that you made 4 runs in.
If that’s your plan, you are going to vamp combo them and hit them super hard with medium in the same turn, then play that doppelganger is you want.
So Vamp Combo? It can be worth it there, for sure. Because an extra click on that Vamp turn is worth a LOT. Go ahead and play that Doppelganger in this deck.


(Aside from that, there are Niche cases where Doppelganger can be more useful, such as when the corp gives you two bad publicity or something. But they're rare).



If you are not trying to do these combos, or any similar future combos that require a ton of clicks in one turn to make runs, then PLAY DESPERADO over Doppelganger. Because its just way better in most cases, and in the worst case, its trading 1 click for $2. I hear that people bend over backwards to play a card in shaper that allows them to make that click for $2 trade. Hmm.


If youre going to play Doppelganger, you need to be in situations where one extra run this turn is BETTER than several credits. That is, if you had a bonus click and you could use it to take several credits, you would ignore that ability and simply run with it!
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Eric F
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Doppel "combos":
--Notoriety.
--Vamp/Siphon runs.
--Viruses. Datasucker, Medium, Nerve Agent, (future) Deep Thought, Pheromones.
--...Bank Job remote attack off a central server attack?

The one I've had good success with is Datasucker and Doppelganger; netting those 2 virus counters isn't as flexible as credits, but depending on how efficient your breakers are, you've either earned a timewalk, or your next turn runs are easier.

Also, that Desperado math assumes you're making free, unhindered runs; I'm sure runners would love to run 4 times in a turn for free, getting credits in addition to information/points. But realistically, Desperado isn't really netting you credits, but lessening the pain of multiple runs since you're spending credits to get through ICE of some sort.

While Doppel doesn't give you credits and your runs remain just as hard, one success lets you threaten 2 servers, causing a corp to rez more defenses. For some, this means "letting them" rez, which might be bad for you. For others, this means "wasting the corp's money" and giving a runner information earlier.

===

All that said, I do pretty much agree that Desperado is more than likely your console of choice for most situations.

Notoriety seems like a pretty clear Doppel combo, and I can see Vamp/Siphon setups and viruses being worthy of Doppel consideration as well.
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Alex Rockwell
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ignisphaseone wrote:

Also, that Desperado math assumes you're making free, unhindered runs;


No it absolutely 100% does not assume that. It assumes you're making X runs, probably paying to get through, and then getting $X off it.
If you had made those two runs with Doppelganger (to give you the second run), then you're getting 1 Click off it.


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Ben Finkel
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For non-Criminals, Doppelganger is cheaper in influence than Desperado. I know that I frequently make decks where I'd prefer a Criminal console over an Anarch or Shaper one.

Oh, and Desperado doesn't pay out if that second run is unsuccessful, which is a decently important deal in the early/mid game.

I still prefer Desperado almost always.
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Lluluien
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Alexfrog wrote:
I see people using Doppelganger all the time, because its new, in decks that should really be using Desperado. Very few decks that I see Doppelganger in should actually have it.

Here is why Desperado is just better.

Think about the following question: How many times do you want to run this turn? (Lets say that by ‘want to run’, we mean that you have that many worthwhile runs you can make, can afford, and will do something.

0: Neither console helps, no difference.
1: Desperado gains you $1. Doppelganger doesn’t help you because you only can do 1 run, so the bonus run is wasted.
2: Desperado gains you $2. Doppelganger gives you 1 Click. Which is better? Often it’s the $2. If you don’t want a free Opus usage, maybe the click, but its usually the $2.
3: Desperado gains you $3. Doppelganger gives you 1 click. Yep, I want the $3.
4: Desperado $4, Doppelganger 1 click.
Okay, so in a normal case, Desperado generally wins, with Doppelganger only being potentially better in the one case that you want to make two runs and clicks are worth more than $2 for you. Or if you want to make MORE runs than you have clicks during the turn.

In most normal use cases, Desperado is just plain better

Okay, lets look at specific niche uses where we need the click.

1) You are trying to play more than one Notoriety in one turn. Yes, Doppelganger saves you a huge amount of effort here. Its totally worth it.
Notoriety deck? Please play that Doppelganger, it’s a great combo.
2) Your plan is to Vamp away all their money, and then crush them so hard with a Medium while they are broke, and you need that extra run way more than you need $4 for this turn that you made 4 runs in.
If that’s your plan, you are going to vamp combo them and hit them super hard with medium in the same turn, then play that doppelganger is you want.
So Vamp Combo? It can be worth it there, for sure. Because an extra click on that Vamp turn is worth a LOT. Go ahead and play that Doppelganger in this deck.


(Aside from that, there are Niche cases where Doppelganger can be more useful, such as when the corp gives you two bad publicity or something. But they're rare).



If you are not trying to do these combos, or any similar future combos that require a ton of clicks in one turn to make runs, then PLAY DESPERADO over Doppelganger. Because its just way better in most cases, and in the worst case, its trading 1 click for $2. I hear that people bend over backwards to play a card in shaper that allows them to make that click for $2 trade. Hmm.


If youre going to play Doppelganger, you need to be in situations where one extra run this turn is BETTER than several credits. That is, if you had a bonus click and you could use it to take several credits, you would ignore that ability and simply run with it!


I agree w/ your assessment of Desperado vs. Doppelganger, and this is a great write-up exposing why it's often so much better.

I do have one little edge case to add here. If you're using a lot of breakers that have a fixed strength that need Datasucker assistance to get through some critical ICE, Doppelganger will sometimes help you break in somewhere you might not otherwise have gotten into. This is more helpful if you have more than one Datasucker installed, and especially helpful if you have Wyldside running.

If you've got just one Datasucker installed, at least the token will likely save you 1 credit if nothing else, though saving one isn't quite as good as earning one, and that only applies on a central server run.
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Doctor Awkward
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This is how I've always thought of the debate: Doppleganger is the kind of card you build a deck around. If you're trying one of those All-Nighter, Joshua B., Vamp, Medium Deep-Dig Anarch decks, it's perfect. If you're running maybe once or twice a turn, Desperado is better. Thanks for going to all the trouble of doing the math though.
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Alex Rockwell
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If you have to get the extra click in order to have the needed extra Datasucker counter that turn then it can be worth it.

Lets say your turn was:
Run archives for free Datasucker counter.
Use Doppelganger to run archives for free Datasucker counter.
Run somewhere I want to run and use counters to parasite the ice (or whatver).

Basically you used 2 clicks and got your 2 suckers and made your run.



Now with Desperado this play looks like:
Run archives for Datasucker + $.
Run archives for Datasucker + $.
Run somewhere and use your suckers, get $.

You spend 1 extra click, and you net $3 for it. Thats USUALLY good. Not always good, usually.


This same scnario is true whether you have to pay to get into archives or not. Or if its a run on HQ or R&D to get the datasucker counter, or whatever. Regardless of what all you have to pay for those runs, Doppelganger's bonus was 1 Click. Desperado's bonus was $3.
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Evan
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Looking at the other "gain a click" cards, it's clear that the designers are waaay stingier and more cautious when it comes to giving you clicks than, say, giving you credits. And with good reason--making clicks easy to come by is probably one of the quickest ways to break the game. But one by-product of that fact is what y'all've been saying: there's little point in using cards like Joshua B, All-Nighter, or Doppelganger unless you're in an unusually good position to take advantage of them.
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TK Number 3
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kobold47 wrote:
Looking at the other "gain a click" cards, it's clear that the designers are waaay stingier and more cautious when it comes to giving you clicks than, say, giving you credits. And with good reason--making clicks easy to come by is probably one of the quickest ways to break the game. But one by-product of that fact is what y'all've been saying: there's little point in using cards like Joshua B, All-Nighter, or Doppelganger unless you're in an unusually good position to take advantage of them.


I think doppelgänger is perfect for the mega R&D dig deck.

Start of turn -Joshua B
Click 1 - Vamp
Click 2 - R&D (1 card)
Doppelgänger - R&D (2 cards)
Click 3 - R&D (3 cards)
Click 4 - Demo Run R&D (4 cards, all trashed)
Click 5 - R&D (9 cards)

So without seeing any trashable cards or agendas you will see 9 cards, avoiding any ice or snares cause you have bankrupted the corp with vamp.

Sure it is a special case, but I'd rather see new consoles be for special cases so we don't have to face console creep.

Any other times, totally agree you should play desperado.
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Frederic Bush
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Doppleganger lets you run through hourglass a second time for free. And I actually did use this "feature" last time I played :-)
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Jack Keys
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fbush555 wrote:
Doppleganger lets you run through hourglass a second time for free. And I actually did use this "feature" last time I played :-)


I've taken advantage of this, too. However, it always makes me feel so uneasy, because I don't like running on the last click. I try to only do it when it feels safe, but it can be tough to tell sometimes, especially when it's sitting on centrals.
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Mike Oehler
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I suspect part of the reason why people use Dopple is that they want to run x3 of their console, and don't have 3 core sets. Even online, where people don't have that kind of limit, they still might want to practice with the cards they actually have.
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Jack Dietz
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Are you allowed to Sneakdoor for your Doppleganger run?
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Carl Phillips
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No, for the same reason you can't Stimhack your dopple-run.
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Trevor Schadt
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jcdietz03 wrote:
Are you allowed to Sneakdoor for your Doppleganger run?
No. If Sneakdoor's text were worded as "When you make a successful Run on Archives, you may instead treat it as a successful run on HQ," then that would be the case. But the fact that a Sneakdoor Run is a click-based effect means that you are NOT "making a Run" when you use Sneakdoor. You are "activating Sneakdoor," and the effect of activating Sneakdoor allows you to make a Run.
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Alejandro Galaviz
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Is this an opinion piece or fact?
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Witold Jakubowski
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Alexfrog wrote:

0: Neither console helps, no difference.
1: Desperado gains you $1. Doppelganger doesn’t help you because you only can do 1 run, so the bonus run is wasted.
2: Desperado gains you $2. Doppelganger gives you 1 Click. Which is better? Often it’s the $2. If you don’t want a free Opus usage, maybe the click, but its usually the $2.
3: Desperado gains you $3. Doppelganger gives you 1 click. Yep, I want the $3.
4: Desperado $4, Doppelganger 1 click.
Okay, so in a normal case, Desperado generally wins, with Doppelganger only being potentially better in the one case that you want to make two runs and clicks are worth more than $2 for you. Or if you want to make MORE runs than you have clicks during the turn.


You are assuming that I want to make 0/1/2/3/4 successful runs. Doppelganger is also great with Snitch. Gives you extra expose on the servers you are not quite sure about. It's a nice thing to consider when building Gabe's Notoriety Deck.
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Aaron Freeman
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Which is another combo that the card works with. I find snitch + doppleganger to be a great combo with an ice destruction/denial deck...

Especially because you can run quite a few other combos in the deck, all of which synergize well with doppleganger.

Other combos that have not been mentioned include bank job and the upcoming dirty laundry. Bankjob is especially nice after an account syphon or vamp hits.

Doppleganger will only get better as more "make a run... if successful" cards are printed. Is it as useful most of the time as desperado? Probably not, but as the card pool grows, this card especially has potential. Perhaps more than the tried and true desperado.

Also in terms of economy for the runner, what about Katy P? I think Katy plays nice with Doppleganger and Desperado, but especially ganger. Ganger allows you to make your three clicks go further than desperado, as I would generally say you cannot make three successful runs in a row in most cases (unless you are running archives...).
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Thomas R
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Alexfrog wrote:
In most normal use cases, Desperado is just plain better


While there's nothing really wrong with the initial analysis here as far as it goes, I do fee like it's rather narrow. Direct click-to-credit comparisons like this completely disregard timing and unevenly-valued turns. I feel like I could write the exact same thing about Gabriel and Andromeda.

Something like: "Andromeda gets to draw four cards for free. That's like getting four free actions. Gabriel gets two free credits if he hits HQ, that's like two free actions each time he hits HQ (if you value one click for one credit). Thus, in any game where you're going to use Gabriel more than three times, he is clearly better!"

In a world where timing doesn't matter and all we care about is aggregate value, that might well be true. The problem is that in Netrunner, timing matters tremendously.

Alex hints at that by mentioning Notoriety. Having an extra click on the turn you want to score Notoriety is tremendously valuable. Much more valuable than just a credit, presumably. Which is why he's willing to excuse the use of Doppleganger to enable that combo.

The ultimate conclusion of the post, however, seems to be built upon a flawed premise: that the only time that an extra click/run will be valuable is if you've specifically built a deck to make it more valuable. While doing that certainly helps, increasing the number of turns on which that "fifth click" is a big deal, your opponent can provide plenty such opportunities without you having to supply anything but the Doppleganger.

Your opponent might play Jinteki: Replicating Perfection. Your opponent could be playing some shell-game variant. You might want to Account Siphon or Vamp and then immediately hit a remote that your opponent hasn't had a chance to rez ice on yet. Your opponent might drop an undefended remote on a turn you want to run, and checking to make sure it's not an agenda and really is the PAD Campaign that it most likely is is safer.

I'm after two points here:

1) Aggregate click-for-credit accounting across the whole game is misleading. When you get that extra click or extra credit can make a huge difference. You need to ask yourself: in your deck, given the way you play it, how many turns occur on which you need just a couple more credits than you have, and how many turns occur in which you need just one more run than you can make.

2) Not all Doppleganger "combos" have to, or even will, come from your deck. Yes, as Alex suggests, you do want to play cards in your deck that let you take advantage of Doppleganger, but that's like playing Parasite AND Deja Vu. It's synergy. Doppleganger can be a good card based purely upon board situation and how your opponent plays.

All that said, Alex is right about the need to be mindful. Evaluate your deck, evaluate your play style, and then decide which console makes the most sense.

But do that evaluation right. Don't try to reduce the whole thing to math, because that very reduction can obscure the real value of selecting one option over another. (Unless you come up with some magical formula that can assign mathematical value to a turn, explaining that the actions you performed on this turn were three times more valuable than the ones you performed on that turn in terms of winning you the game.)
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If you're Criminal vs a tag punishing deck the doppel can help on a turn where you account syphon - you could run R&D with Doppel, then run a remote for a click and still have 2 clicks to clear tags. Doesn't happen that often though so I've stuck with Desperado for teh moneys.

That ONE game I had where it all worked like a dream was quite satisfying though
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Milan Mašát
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And of course the most shining option is missing in OP post:
I want 5 runs in a turn.
Although it was said in several posts and even OP used it for notoriety, you sometimes need 5 runs in a turn. Then it looks like:
5 runs: Doppelganger ok, desperado - sad panda.
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James Henry
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tbh the money is great w/ desperado and syncs well with gabe's inherent ability but i also really enjoy the options given to me by doppelganger. can't count the amount of times it has won me a game or allowed me to grab that bank job before smashing down server because hey, i can do that with no worries of lost time.
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Alex Rockwell
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Quote:
And of course the most shining option is missing in OP post:
I want 5 runs in a turn.


If your deck truly wants 5 runs in a turn, more than it wants 4 runs and $4 that turn, then your deck is the kind of combo deck thats wants Doppelganger. Which I didnt 'miss', because I specifically talked about it.




To summarize:
* If youre usually having a situation where, when you run, the value of an extra run that turn is worth MORE than $2, then your deck wants Doppelganger.

* If it often isnt worth more than $2, you should be using Desperado.


Decks that want Doppelganger and thus generally combo-ish. Notoriety, Vamp, Medium, etc. They tend to be 'big turn' oriented decks.

I'm not saying 'dont ever use Doppelganger'. I'm saying 'before you use Doppelganger over Desperado, consider whether your deck is the right kind of deck to make that choice correct'.

In the standard types of Criminal decks, lets call it the Jopejope style criminal, since thats the best decklist I've seen of the Archetype, you want Desperado.

I've seen lots of people just put Doppelganger into everything, because its new. It should be going into certain decks, not all of them!

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Dave Green
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Maybe I'm just poor, or miserly, or whatever, but the single biggest reason I have to use Doppelganger over Desperado is that I only own 1 copy of Desperado but 3 of Doppelganger. I find I just can't play enough to justify an additional $30 and Doppelganger is _almost_ as good as Desperado for most decks. Maybe I'll try out proxies next game night, but that just feels too much like cheating.
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Frank Brooks
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Alexfrog wrote:
Think about the following question: How many times do you want to run this turn? (Lets say that by ‘want to run’, we mean that you have that many worthwhile runs you can make, can afford, and will do something.

0: Neither console helps, no difference.
1: Desperado gains you $1. Doppelganger doesn’t help you because you only can do 1 run, so the bonus run is wasted.
2: Desperado gains you $2. Doppelganger gives you 1 Click. Which is better? Often it’s the $2. If you don’t want a free Opus usage, maybe the click, but its usually the $2.
3: Desperado gains you $3. Doppelganger gives you 1 click. Yep, I want the $3.
4: Desperado $4, Doppelganger 1 click.
Okay, so in a normal case, Desperado generally wins, with Doppelganger only being potentially better in the one case that you want to make two runs and clicks are worth more than $2 for you. Or if you want to make MORE runs than you have clicks during the turn.

In most normal use cases, Desperado is just plain better


An important thing to note is that you only get the money from desperado if you successfully complete the run. That "free run" you get from Doppelganger is still "used" even if that run isn't successful.

So, let's revisit this assuming you have Kati Jones installed:

0: Neither console helps since you didn't run.
1: Desperado gives you 1 credit. Doppelganger isn't useful since you only wanted to run once. You did gain an extra run though, we'll come back to this.
2: Desperado gave you 2 credits. Doppelganger also let you do two runs, so with your spare click, you can click Kati therefore banking 3 credits. Of course due to having to pay for Kati to be installed and having to click to get it removed, this potential later money is worth somewhere between 2 and 3 credits roughly. So long as you don't need that money right now, this is more or less a wash. 2 credits now verses slighly more than 2 credits later.
3: Desperado gains you 3 credits, Doppelganger let you do 3 turns in two clicks so you can click Kati once as well. This lets you gain between 2-3 credits in the future. If you made three successful runs this turn, then Desperado is probably a better situation.
4: Desperado gains you 4 credits. Doppelganger let you do it in 3 clicks so you can click Kati at a "loss". Alternatively, you could do something else. If you wanted to run 4 times in a turn (for whatever reason) you can still play a card this turn. You might even want to recover from Net damage. Desperado probably is better at this situation, but if you need to do anything else during the turn that you want to run 4 times, than Doppelganger is better.
5: Desperado doesn't let you do this. Doppelganger lets you run 5 times so obviously Doppelganger is better in this situation.

Of course for all of these situations you needed to successfully complete that many runs for you to get money using Desperado and only need to complete one run to get the effect of Doppelganger.

So what could you do with that "free run" you got from getting a successful run? Well, if you are using Snitch (potentially just for the effect of exposing ice) than you turned that "free run" into a "free expose". If you are using non-boostable breakers, then you might be able to run an unprotected Archives to get a Datasucker counter converting that "free run" into a "free -1 strength counter". If used with Bank Job, and there is an unprotected remote, then you can install Bank Job, then for a second click get the money and run a server for free instead of wasting one click spending one click to install, another to run it and a third to use that money during a run.

________________

If getting money is less important (say you are playing against Jinteki and its very cheap ice), then you can run twice or thrice and recover cards slightly more efficiently when using Doppelganger than if you had Desperado.

Doppelganger takes some kick out of the Jinteki 2 identity. So long as you successfully run a central, you can run a remote and still have 3 clicks left perhaps to recover from damage or run multiple remotes. Whenever playing Jinteki, money tends to be much less of an issue than spending your clicks to recover cards or make runs.

__________________

To your original point, many people could still be using Desperado to be more effective than using Doppelganger, but Doppelganger certainly has its uses, especially when you want the utility of extra runs/clicks rather than utility of money. This is exemplified when money isn't as much of an issue.
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