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Carl

(Scurvodsky)

Canada

Ontario

You said that you didn't enjoy Twilight Imperium as a solo experience b/c there was just too much interaction between the players - small actions that could constantly be responded to, etc. Fair enough makes sense. But I got the impression from your Here I Stand videos that you did enjoy that game solo. I'm wondering what the difference is between HiS and TI on this point? Or have you changed in your views about solo enjoyment between your HiS review and now?

Which games do you find particularly well suited for solo, in the sense of having the time to enjoy it, without feeling rushed b/c of many little actions? How would you compare this with Revolution: Dutch Revolt or Burma? - to mention two widely different games ...

Edited Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:28 pm
Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:27 pm
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

Scurvodsky wrote:

You said that you didn't enjoy Twilight Imperium as a solo experience b/c there was just too much interaction between the players - small actions that could constantly be responded to, etc. Fair enough makes sense. But I got the impression from your Here I Stand videos that you did enjoy that game solo. I'm wondering what the difference is between HiS and TI on this point? Or have you changed in your views about solo enjoyment between your HiS review and now?

HIS was the first CDG I wholeheartedly enjoyed. It does contain that
over-interaction. I think subject matter and a lighter decision
complexity made it easier - it also met my intuitive grasp of what
was happening very well. I'm finding a similar process with Age of
Steam, as compared to say, Chicago Express or Pampas Railways - where
the former is more palatable because the decisions make more sense to
me.

With more play, I'd guess I would like TI more. But, with some
of the parts that are counter-intuitive (or unrealistic?) to me,
I wonder why I'd WANT to push myself to enjoy.

Quote:

Which games do you find particularly well suited for solo, in the sense of having the time to enjoy it, without feeling rushed b/c of many little actions? How would you compare this with Revolution: Dutch Revolt or Burma? - to mention two widely different games ...

I-go-you-go is usually the best mechanism for solo for me. Burma
certainly has that. Revolution does as well, IIRC. There are games
I love solo that ARE pulsed though (VG's Civil War) - I usually play
each little action as a stand-alone turn though. Not sure how that
will work with the camera though - which I know inhibits my enjoyment.

Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:47 pm
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(RoadHouse)

Finland

I really agree with you on most of the gameplay issues you mentioned. I find the victory conditions too euroish for an ameritrash game. Card picking is too important and the system activation mechanism significantly slows down the game. The problem with some of the FFG games is that you have a million pieces of information on the table and making your desicions matter takes too much time and effort. Usually you keep forgetting things and you just don't want to pay too much attention.

The game is epic for sure but I'd really rather play a ton of other games in the same amount of time TI3 takes to play.

btw. The plastic pieces are kind of a FFG standard.

Edited Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:38 pm
Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:34 pm
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

RoadHouse wrote:

I really agree with you on most of the gameplay issues you mentioned. I find the victory conditions too euroish for an ameritrash game. Card picking is too important and the system activation mechanism significantly slows down the game. The problem with some of the FFG games is that you have a million pieces of information on the table and making your desicions matter takes too much time and effort. Usually you keep forgetting things and you just don't want to pay too much attention.

Again, with a lot of playing, I think it could be enjoyable. You'd
get used to all these little factors - but I'm not someone who wants
to devote so much effort to ANY game - and if I did, I'd want something
with a larger payoff than this provides.

Quote:

btw. The plastic pieces are kind of a FFG standard.

I know. And there are games that make plastic work ok (I still
usually prefer chits though). Axis & Allies comes to mind. A minis-
style game like Space Hulk (never actually played it) looks like
it would work well. Here though, they are hard to distinguish, and
cover important information - leaving aside matters of aesthetics.

Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:38 pm
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Rob Judy

(Bassfisher44)

United States
Cottonwood
California

Do you think if the card #8 allowed 1 VP instead of 2, that might make things better? Or at least break up the 8, 1 combo every turn?

BTW: Thanks for reiterating that this game isn't good solo. I have thought about trying it solo many times, each time I put it back down. After watching your attempt, I won't pick it up again unless I have at least 5 players! shake

Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:09 pm
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Joël Simard

(Gavroche)

Canada
Montréal
Montréal

I can understand your point. I agree on the miniatures, they are a pain and yes, counters would have been a lot easier to manage, but they to not bother me to the point of been detrimental to the game.

For the euro elements: I am a eurogamers (as much as a wargamer), so the impulses turn doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I generally enjoy my solo game of TI.

For a first session, playing 6 players can be very difficult, I play my first game with only 4 players and even then, there is a lot going on.
The only way of playing TI solo is to sit in front of the player you want to play and take the time to think about your strategy, evaluate all your options, reread your card, reevaluate your position, etc. Yes with the impulses mechanism, in can be very long and tedious...but this is the kind of decision I like to take in a game.

For the objective cards, the one provided with the expansion are more balance and versatile. The new objectives deck is also more combat oriented.

I see Space Empire on your pile, surely this one would be more in your alley...The only thing I miss in this game is the political elements of TI.

Maybe you would also prefer Warriors Knigh, this game is really more manageable solo, and a great thing is that when you vote on the council (very similar to TI) you have the option to pass private bills, basically your own propositions and laws (as long as you're within the rules).

Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:30 pm
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Simon Auger

(slaphead6)

England

Just wanted to say thanks for sticking with this one for as long as you did. I've had my eye on it for a while but always had doubts about it, despite friends telling me that it's really great. Your play through was hugely insightful and has helped to confirm my foubts about the game.

It seems to be an intense game that requires a lot of thought effort and concentration to play in multi-player, yet alone in solitaire. Having said that, for a game with such a lot going on, it struck me that it's a game where not much happens and what does happen doesn't seem to impact the progress of the game that much. Everything comes back to the race for victory points. Everything else just feels like window dressing and flim flam - too much theme and flavour and not enough substance maybe.

Anyway, just want to reiterate my thanks for sticking with this game for long enough to give a good flavour of how it plays. Now go and reward yourself by playing something that you find fun and enjoyable.

Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:56 pm
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Wayne

(DirtyDubs)

Ireland

Gavroche wrote:

For a first session, playing 6 players can be very difficult, I play my first game with only 4 players and even then, there is a lot going on.

I like TI3 but only as a 3 or 4 player game tbh. 6 players is too long and doesn't add very much to the game imo.

Gavroche wrote:

I see Space Empire on your pile, surely this one would be more in your alley...

Played Space Empires a few times and love it. I wonder how the base game could be played solo though as it's all about the hidden information?! Haven't tried the actual Solo missions and I wonder if they feel too different to the base game.

Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:14 pm
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(RoadHouse)

Finland

DirtyDubs wrote:

Gavroche wrote:

For a first session, playing 6 players can be very difficult, I play my first game with only 4 players and even then, there is a lot going on.

I like TI3 but only as a 3 or 4 player game tbh. 6 players is too long and doesn't add very much to the game imo.

So, is the "play only with 6 players" merely an illusion created by the fans?

Edited Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:50 pm
Posted Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:49 pm
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Art

(AngryStarAnarchy)

Canada
London
Ontario

I think you need to play with the other Imperium card since the one in the base game. Seriously, it ruins the balance and pace of the game. It was meant as a clock, but it really pushes the game instead of letting it resolve on its own.

The best part of this game is that it a lot of the game is just negotiating and posturing with other players. It's almost a role-playing a game.

Edited Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:04 am
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:02 am
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

Bassfisher44 wrote:

Do you think if the card #8 allowed 1 VP instead of 2, that might make things better? Or at least break up the 8, 1 combo every turn?

The latter. I don't really find that disturbing, so
it wouldn't improve things for me.

Quote:

BTW: Thanks for reiterating that this game isn't good solo. I have thought about trying it solo many times, each time I put it back down. After watching your attempt, I won't pick it up again unless I have at least 5 players! shake

Less players solo would be easier, I think.

Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:04 am
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

Gavroche wrote:

I can understand your point. I agree on the miniatures, they are a pain and yes, counters would have been a lot easier to manage, but they to not bother me to the point of been detrimental to the game.

Not being able to see the terrain, especially on
a map which changes between games, is a real problem.

Much smaller minis would help.

Quote:

For the euro elements: I am a eurogamers (as much as a wargamer), so the impulses turn doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I generally enjoy my solo game of TI.

There are some euroish things I like. But, this really helped
me clarify which make me most miserable (and they're much the
same things which make CDGs painful) - because, on paper, this
game had everything going for it. The big space-opera, with politics,
trade, and warfare; but it was the mechanics which killed it for me.

Quote:

For a first session, playing 6 players can be very difficult, I play my first game with only 4 players and even then, there is a lot going on.

I'm pretty sure you're right there.

Quote:

The only way of playing TI solo is to sit in front of the player you want to play and take the time to think about your strategy, evaluate all your options, reread your card, reevaluate your position, etc. Yes with the impulses mechanism, in can be very long and tedious...but this is the kind of decision I like to take in a game.

I could take pleasure in it that way - but there'd be less 'pay off'
between decision making pauses. Compared to something like EU,
where I can make my decisions, and then pursue them throughout
my economic phase (and a bit less during the military - but objectives
are less likely to shift due to circumstances), it just doesn't
compare.

Quote:

I see Space Empire on your pile, surely this one would be more in your alley...The only thing I miss in this game is the political elements of TI.

Yeah. I'm prepping it. It looks a lot like a reworking of Stellar
Conquest - which is a fantastic game.

Quote:

Maybe you would also prefer Warriors Knigh, this game is really more manageable solo, and a great thing is that when you vote on the council (very similar to TI) you have the option to pass private bills, basically your own propositions and laws (as long as you're within the rules).

Just read the rules on the new edition.
Should be playing it fairly soon. It looks
more true to the GW original - though with more
interactive play. The original had real problems,
which I think the FF version has rectified.

Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:12 am
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

slaphead6 wrote:

Just wanted to say thanks for sticking with this one for as long as you did. I've had my eye on it for a while but always had doubts about it, despite friends telling me that it's really great. Your play through was hugely insightful and has helped to confirm my foubts about the game.

There were moments (when I stopped worrying about strategy
for example) when I started to enjoy.

Quote:

It seems to be an intense game that requires a lot of thought effort and concentration to play in multi-player, yet alone in solitaire. Having said that, for a game with such a lot going on, it struck me that it's a game where not much happens and what does happen doesn't seem to impact the progress of the game that much. Everything comes back to the race for victory points. Everything else just feels like window dressing and flim flam - too much theme and flavour and not enough substance maybe.

Yep. That's what I mean by not getting a high pay off.
I wasn't getting the exciting story I expected. Just a
really massive euro. Made me question my desire for Die Macher.

Quote:

Anyway, just want to reiterate my thanks for sticking with this game for long enough to give a good flavour of how it plays. Now go and reward yourself by playing something that you find fun and enjoyable.

Oh, I am. Age of Steam's first playing is seriously fun.

Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:17 am
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(RoadHouse)

Finland

calandale wrote:

Just read the rules on the new edition.
Should be playing it fairly soon.

Edited Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:18 am
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:17 am
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

DirtyDubs wrote:

Played Space Empires a few times and love it. I wonder how the base game could be played solo though as it's all about the hidden information?!

Of course, I'm planning on doing the base game (since I only
have one set). It looks easier than Stellar Conquest or Dune
solo - and those have each been pleasures for me.

Quote:

Haven't tried the actual Solo missions and I wonder if they feel too different to the base game.

I'm not a big fan of designed as solo games. At least alone.

Posted Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:19 am
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P. Mihalarias

(Tamburlain)

United States
Richardson
Texas

Really good review. Even before I watched, I'd a strong premonition that your playing 'Twilight Imperium' was going to be a case of oil meeting water.

Personally, I have a simple--almost visceral--dislike of most of Fantasy Flight's neon thematic extravaganzas that I've played. And yet I somehow really enjoyed the equally extravagant 'Merchants and Marauders'. I've always just chalked this discrepancy up to the fact that M&M incorporates a strong euro element. Interestingly though, your key criticism in this review has made me realize that it is precisely the euro element in 'TI' that I, too, dislike. And your points here seem generalizable, not just to 4x-euro hybrids, but to other kinds of euro-hybrids as well.

So ultimately I suppose you've got me thinking on what it is I believe makes for a successful hybrid. In any case, I'm now given serious pause to reconsider at least one other 4x-euro game that I've recently had my eye on:Eclipse.

Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:16 pm
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

Tamburlain wrote:

Really good review. Even before I watched, I'd a strong premonition that your playing 'Twilight Imperium' was going to be a case of oil meeting water.

Remember though, I've had almost as strong a reaction against
things I've come around to (like High Frontier).

Quote:

Personally, I have a simple--almost visceral--dislike of most of Fantasy Flight's neon thematic extravaganzas that I've played. And yet I somehow really enjoyed the equally extravagant 'Merchants and Marauders'. I've always just chalked this discrepancy up to the fact that M&M incorporates a strong euro element. Interestingly though, your key criticism in this review has made me realize that it is precisely the euro element in 'TI' that I, too, dislike. And your points here seem generalizable, not just to 4x-euro hybrids, but to other kinds of euro-hybrids as well.

Oddly, I'm finding their treatment of Warrior Knights superior to
what I remember of the original - precisely for euroish aspects.
In both TI and WK though, the victory conditions feel wrong.

Eclipse looks interesting - but I can't tell from most 'mechanism
only' discussions whether I'd enjoy (much less just 'in the box' -
which is all that's available). Hell, I thought I liked what
TI was doing, until the decision trees became too complex for the
pace.

Edited Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:39 pm
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:37 pm
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P. Mihalarias

(Tamburlain)

United States
Richardson
Texas

calandale wrote:

Oddly, I'm finding their treatment of Warrior Knights superior to
what I remember of the original - precisely for euroish aspects.
In both TI and WK though, the victory conditions feel wrong.

Yup. This speaks directly to what I was saying about Merchants and Marauders. Euro-ish can go both ways. Notwithstanding my agreement with your assessment of wrong-feeling victory conditions in TI, what I now find interesting is that generally I'm finding it more and more difficult to put my finger on exactly what I sense is the reason "euro" works *for me* in some hybrid contexts and completely breaks down in others.

calandale wrote:

Eclipse looks interesting - but I can't tell from most 'mechanism
only' discussions whether I'd enjoy (much less just 'in the box' -
which is all that's available). Hell, I thought I liked what
TI was doing, until the decision trees became too complex for the
pace.

There is a decent video of the designer giving a walk-thru of Eclipse in the Essen preview thread, somewhere hereabouts. That's what piqued my interest. But still, I've decided to hold back on purchasing the game until more feedback filters through the forums.

Posted Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:13 pm
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Henry Coleman

(boxjuggler)

RoadHouse wrote:

DirtyDubs wrote:

Gavroche wrote:

For a first session, playing 6 players can be very difficult, I play my first game with only 4 players and even then, there is a lot going on.

I like TI3 but only as a 3 or 4 player game tbh. 6 players is too long and doesn't add very much to the game imo.

So, is the "play only with 6 players" merely an illusion created by the fans?

I enjoy the game with 4, 5 or 6 players pretty much equally. The idea that you need 6 is misleading, although I do try to get that number just because I like playing game with more players and it adds to the social aspect of the evening.

The 3 player game is much weaker, and lacks interaction.

Posted Sun Nov 6, 2011 8:15 pm
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Andy Cowen

(aeneas2467)

United States
Broadlands
Virginia

Thanks for the review; you may have saved me ~$75 or so. I guess I'll stick with Space Empires 4X.

Posted Sat Dec 3, 2011 4:03 am
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

aeneas2467 wrote:

Thanks for the review; you may have saved me ~$75 or so. I guess I'll stick with Space Empires 4X.

It definitely doesn't have anything like the kinda feel
of SE4X. You may want to look at the intro, to get a
better idea of play than my reviews give, because clearly
this is a game people do like - but it's just too painful
for my taste.

Posted Sat Dec 3, 2011 5:21 am
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(RoadHouse)

Finland

calandale wrote:

aeneas2467 wrote:

Thanks for the review; you may have saved me ~$75 or so. I guess I'll stick with Space Empires 4X.

It definitely doesn't have anything like the kinda feel
of SE4X. You may want to look at the intro, to get a
better idea of play than my reviews give, because clearly
this is a game people do like - but it's just too painful
for my taste.

Or..try Eclipse. I haven't played it yet, so I can't vouch for it, but many people have dumped TI3 after a few plays of Eclipse.

Posted Sat Dec 3, 2011 11:15 am
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Art

(AngryStarAnarchy)

Canada
London
Ontario

RoadHouse wrote:

Or..try Eclipse. I haven't played it yet, so I can't vouch for it, but many people have dumped TI3 after a few plays of Eclipse.

I think one thing to keep in mind to put into perspective is that more people have TI3 and liked it than any other competitor. If I doubt I'd recommend just d/l-ing the rule books. Any game will have its detractors, I think it's great (as long as you play with the official variant for the #8 card... yes, its game changingly bad).

Posted Sat Dec 3, 2011 8:19 pm
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

AngryStarAnarchy wrote:

I think one thing to keep in mind to put into perspective is that more people have TI3 and liked it than any other competitor.

I knew it was popular - but that kinda popularity is seldom
going to please me. I'm thinking about things like Axis & Allies
here - usually means an attempt to reach a lowest common denominator.

My tastes are different enough from the crowd, that I shy away from
things that are that well-liked. Though honestly, usually they aren't
the royal pain in the butt this one was.

Posted Sat Dec 3, 2011 8:28 pm
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Rob Judy

(Bassfisher44)

United States
Cottonwood
California

AngryStarAnarchy wrote:

(as long as you play with the official variant for the #8 card... yes, its game changingly bad).

What is the official variant for the #8 card?

Posted Sat Dec 3, 2011 8:37 pm
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Art

(AngryStarAnarchy)

Canada
London
Ontario

Bassfisher44 wrote:

AngryStarAnarchy wrote:

(as long as you play with the official variant for the #8 card... yes, its game changingly bad).

What is the official variant for the #8 card?

First, a clarification. In the original version getting the #8 card was the most powerful thing you could do in a turn, much more valuable than any other action by far. This meant that half the action was around choosing that strategy. It was meant to give the game a definite clock and it does, which is great for euro-gamers. However, for those wanting something closer to wargame, it kind of breaks the suspension of disbelief. So they replace the Imperial with the Imperial II which can be found on page 17 in the rulebook for the Twilight Imperium (third edition): Shattered Empire expansion.

Posted Sun Dec 4, 2011 1:08 am
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Andy Cowen

(aeneas2467)

United States
Broadlands
Virginia

calandale wrote:

aeneas2467 wrote:

Thanks for the review; you may have saved me ~$75 or so. I guess I'll stick with Space Empires 4X.

It definitely doesn't have anything like the kinda feel
of SE4X. You may want to look at the intro, to get a
better idea of play than my reviews give, because clearly
this is a game people do like - but it's just too painful
for my taste.

Thanks for your play thrus; I've watched several that exposed me to games that I wasn't aware of, like High Frontier, Warrior Knights, American Megafauna and various war games. TI3 is tempting just for the theme; I'm a sucker for space games. Although, I like that the object of SE4X is to turn the other dude's home planet into a radioactive wasteland. I do kind of dislike the choose a role thing and the Euro score track in TI3, seems anticlimactic. I am pondering giving Runewars + expansion a try instead to satisfy my FFG Ameritrashy thematic needs. Thanks again.

Posted Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:39 am
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(RoadHouse)

Finland

aeneas2467 wrote:

calandale wrote:

aeneas2467 wrote:

Thanks for the review; you may have saved me ~$75 or so. I guess I'll stick with Space Empires 4X.

It definitely doesn't have anything like the kinda feel
of SE4X. You may want to look at the intro, to get a
better idea of play than my reviews give, because clearly
this is a game people do like - but it's just too painful
for my taste.

I am pondering giving Runewars + expansion a try instead to satisfy my FFG Ameritrashy thematic needs. Thanks again.

Posted Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:06 am
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Andy Cowen

(aeneas2467)

United States
Broadlands
Virginia

RoadHouse wrote:

calandale wrote:

aeneas2467 wrote:

Thanks for the review; you may have saved me ~$75 or so. I guess I'll stick with Space Empires 4X.

It definitely doesn't have anything like the kinda feel
of SE4X. You may want to look at the intro, to get a
better idea of play than my reviews give, because clearly
this is a game people do like - but it's just too painful
for my taste.

Or..try Eclipse. I haven't played it yet, so I can't vouch for it, but many people have dumped TI3 after a few plays of Eclipse.

Eclipse does look interesting(especially being able to design your own ships), but it has little wooden cubes...I hate little wooden cubes

Posted Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:40 am
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

Price is too steep for something that hasn't stood the test of time.

TI - at least I knew I was getting a game people still love
and play after a few years. On the bright side though, the big
complaints seem to be that it's too random - I don't mind that
one bit. Guessing there'll be used copies available soon once
the hype cools down, and people find it ain't their style.

Posted Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:28 am
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JJ Belyeu

(BeerMe)

United States
Ontario
California

calandale wrote:

Price is too steep for something that hasn't stood the test of time.

TI - at least I knew I was getting a game people still love
and play after a few years. On the bright side though, the big
complaints seem to be that it's too random - I don't mind that
one bit. Guessing there'll be used copies available soon once
the hype cools down, and people find it ain't their style.

+1 to the comments on Eclipse. I have yet to play it, but plan on buying it once a reprint hits shelves. As you are, I am curious to see how it stands up to time.

One thing I want to ask though (since you mentioned Dune in the review) is if you show any interest in the re-issuing of the main mechanics under a TI theme in Rex. I have never played Dune, but have high expectations for Rex as a die hard TI fan.

Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:06 am
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Enrico Viglino

(calandale)

United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona

BeerMe wrote:

One thing I want to ask though (since you mentioned Dune in the review) is if you show any interest in the re-issuing of the main mechanics under a TI theme in Rex. I have never played Dune, but have high expectations for Rex as a die hard TI fan.

Dune's a great game, which really captured a certain feel for the
story. I'm not about to buy a reissue (I have two or three copies of
the original) of the system, but I think it's fantastic that it will
be available to another generation of gamers.

Posted Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:24 am
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