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Gastel Etswane

Spain
Peterborough
Ontario

I think you have a great review, but I disagree with your assessment that tactics are so wrapped up with the cards dealt. A good commander keeps this in mind and needs to adapt to the changing conditions on the field. I find it helps to think of a section being under-utilized as a breakdown in communications. It can be frustrating, but it is hardly realistic for everything to go exactly as planned.

Also, Memoir '44 shouldn't be necessarily compared next to more serious wargames as it doesn't try to compete. We don't often compare a Kia Rio with a Aston Martin Vanquish - they just aren't intended to be compared.

Again, this was a great quick review that certainly points out a frustration people have difficulty with, but I think it was a bit harsh to say "unfortunately the game mechanics started happening."

Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:34 am
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Joel Petersen

(joelpetersen)

Denmark

A miniatures game? What?

Oh, just wanted to say that ive played many many games of Memoir 44, and i have never ever experienced anyone ever having to pass on their turn. Like the late Steve Jobs i must therefore conclude; "you're holding it wrong"

Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:12 am
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Tanks Alot

(charlescab)

United States
Fort Mill
South Carolina

www.facebook.com/HistoricalBoardGames

The scenario you played is just an intro to the game. This game has hundreds of free scenarios, and the one you played is very difficult as the germans. Scenario 2 ST Mere Eigles is much more fun, and will give a better perspective on the game.

With 4 expansion packs, breakthrough and overlord formats and all the extra decks (battle cards) its easy to see a lot of people like this game.

Also the cards, like dice add a certain element of unknown element to the game. Ive played for 5 years and still love the game

That scenario portrays the germans being surprised (as in history) when the americans attacked. Part of the game is recreating history. The germans get 2 cards and the American player gets 6 (I believe) and it's not set up to be a fair fight.

Edited Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:54 am
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:52 am
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Joe Heaney

(jheaney)

United States
Shoreview
MN

Whoa! Not where I expected the review to be headed.

Love the new intro. I like the basic game introduction and no over exerted effort in trying to get a laugh before the review begins.

I've only played Memoir probably a dozen times and I only have the base set I have to agree that sometimes your game can become very frustrating due to the cards. There's already a good deal of difficulty coordinating movement through some of the terrain and if you're playing a session where the cards aren't in your favor then you're pretty much helpless.

Gastel Estwane, I think, is right when he says that a good commander has to make good of a limited situation. He's right because that's what you can do about 80% of the time. And for those 8 out of 10 games, Memoir is one of the best war games you can find. But for those 2 games, you're gonna be pulling your hair out of your head with anger at your lack of resources.

This may change with expansions, but I can't speak to that. I just know the base game. But if a game really only shines after 4 or 5 expansions than it's really hard to give just the base game and only the base game a lofty status of brilliance.

I did get the feeling though, that review was exceptionally dismissive. I'd be curious to know how many times it was played before it was reviewed. Somehow, the review sort of communicates that the game was played once of twice and then thrown aside as sub-par.

Everything considered, I do quite enjoy the game much more than these reviewers do. It's one that my brother and I can play several sessions of in one sitting when he comes home to visit which is sadly not often. That makes Memoir 44 valuable to me in and of itself.

Edited Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:47 am
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:05 am
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David

(Snowman)

New Zealand
Taupo

May the Great Spirit Bless all who read this.

Good review and summary. Agree with your score which is a fraction higher than mine.

Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:17 am
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Gustavo

(gmsa84)

Brazil
Hattiesburg
Mississippi

This review summarizes my exact thoughts after the first plays of Memoir 44. However, I decided to give the game a chance, and found in it a great game, with which I am in love nowadays. There is much more planning and strategy than it seems to have after your first play.

And, of course, I would never play the scenario you chose again, except when teaching new players. It is unbalanced, with a bad army distribution among the section, and lacks variety of armies and terrain.

Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:35 am
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Kyle Woods

(KRWoods1)

United States
Atlanta
Georgia

Aside from obviously not grasping the concept of the game, these people seem a bit color-blind. Gray army? Yellow grenade?

Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:51 pm
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Frank Müller

(enpeze)

Austria

A very good made review. Congrats for the production professionality.

But I think that you exaggerate the luck factor in the game. Yes, there is some luck in M44, but first in war there is most of the time luck too and a good player can most of the time beat a not so good player. I played hundreds of M44 games so I can evaluate this very well. In comparision with other wargames M44 (ever rolled several 10, 11 or 12 in a row in Advanced Squad leader?) has only an average luck factor. So IMO this complain is not very well researched from your part.

Additionally you did not mention a only real problem of M44. Namely that fact that the scenarios (those in the box) are not balanced so that you have to play each scenario 2 times, changing sides. This problem disappears mostly if you play the revised from the air craft expansion or some the excellent user made.

Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:54 pm
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JAMES CASTELLI

(jamesmckane)

Australia
Hornsby
N.S.W

Quote:

Another great question is raised here, if a reviewer think a game is horrible, should he/she do the review anyway ???

Yes, otherwise you'd be left with every review praising a game. It can be an important part in a buying decision to find out the negative aspects as much as the positive. Before buying a game I often read the rating comments here on BGG, I read a few that rate it highly, so so and low. I do totally disagree with the final thoughts offered in this review, however they will not be alone in their assessment of this game. I know several people who are not very fond of it. Regardless, Board to Death's efforts here are appreciated, great production and it's not as easy as you think to get motivated to review a game you dislike when there would no doubt be many games you are passionate about

.

Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:08 pm
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Mathue Faulkner

(mfaulk80)

United States
Dallas
Texas

truthteller wrote:

This review is such a waste of my time. If you don't like this game at all then why you are giving it 6 out of 10? Why not just give a 2 since you hate it so much ???

Another great question is raised here, if a reviewer think a game is horrible, should he/she do the review anyway ???

More negative reviews are needed honestly. Otherwise, as someone looking into a game, it's somewhat pointless to read a review.

Movie reviews aren't always positive. Video game reviews aren't always positive. Why should board games be any different?

In regards to the actual rating, they pointed out a lot of positives in the game. That's why it's a 6 and not a 2. They even pointed out what group of individuals this may be a good game for. Essentially, they felt the game added too much randomness with the cards and that's it. Besides, it's just a number and it's their opinion not yours.

Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:16 pm
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Rick Teverbaugh

(rickert)

United States
Anderson
Indiana

I think any reviewer should be aware of the target audience and the game's intent BEFORE doing a review. These people obviously didn't do that. Sometimes it is difficult to ascertain that with a brand new game, but with one that's several years old this M44, there's little excuse.

Posted Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:27 pm
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Oliver Paul

(murksofus)

Iceland
Reykjavik

I think Board to Death are finally getting on the right track here. Horrible intro jokes are gone, straight forward and honest review.

All of the replies disparaging them in this thread have to be taken with a grain of salt. They obviously hold M44 in great regard, and cannot stand to see it rated poorly. You guys have to understand that people have different tastes and opinions when it comes to games, and to call this review a waste of time or wrong is just that, wrong. This is B2T's opinion of the game.

If all reviews were done by fans of games we would have no basis to judge the games. In many cases, negative reviews are the most enlightening when thinking of one's next purchase. With differing opinion comes different viewpoints and experiences.

Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:31 am
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Gastel Etswane

(Gastel)

Spain
Peterborough
Ontario

I think this was a fine review and certainly listed issues that other people have pointed out. I think the review was a bit heavy handed on how broken this game can be. While I have certainly run into a slew of cards for a section that I have neglected or been driven out of, I certainly don't think that this is abnormal for a war situation.

Consider - a weak left side that is being swept by the enemy. The generals in charge of that area are poor and start to shout for more attention on their side. This incapacitates the rest of the army and leads to the whole of the army being lost.

Or maybe a communications line has been infiltrated by efficient saboteurs preventing timely arrival of orders to the right side. They know the left is weak and so they leave those instructions alone.

I find that if you picture the cards being orders that have to be carried or communicated from a back line field office to the advancing forces, then the run of bad cards can be easily thematic and not take away from the game.

As for rolling dice... I mean c'mon... rolling dice is fun... the pictures are fun... it is awesome when you are rolling well, but it is equally fun when the rolls are all the wrong symbol (I find I get tank rolls against infantry and infantry rolls against tanks ALL THE TIME.) Maybe there is camouflage or better positioning of troops. Maybe the captains and sergeants are more tactical and evade your fire, while laying down good suppression fire that throws off your army. Certainly you will get them NEXT time.

The detractors of this game are obviously frustrated by these things. I am not. I find it fun, accessible and something I can get almost anybody else to play. For me those bonuses easily out-weigh the occasional need to suffer a bad string of luck. For these reviewers, the bonuses did not totally out-weigh these frustrations. I wonder if it is because they only played a few games, only one scenario or if they just couldn't see past these issues. At any rate, their opinion is valid, needed and allows for an interesting discourse about how we feel about the game.

Edited Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:59 am
Posted Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:55 am
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Ronald Chavez

(ronster0)

United States
Hacienda Heights
California

murksofus wrote:

I think Board to Death are finally getting on the right track here. Horrible intro jokes are gone, straight forward and honest review.

All of the replies disparaging them in this thread have to be taken with a grain of salt. They obviously hold M44 in great regard, and cannot stand to see it rated poorly. You guys have to understand that people have different tastes and opinions when it comes to games, and to call this review a waste of time or wrong is just that, wrong. This is B2T's opinion of the game.

If all reviews were done by fans of games we would have no basis to judge the games. In many cases, negative reviews are the most enlightening when thinking of one's next purchase. With differing opinion comes different viewpoints and experiences.

While I can understand this, I think you should play a game more than once before you make a review.

This is a review of a game... I think they should actually play the game and all it's aspects before... well... making a review.

I've seen this with their other reviews, where they play it once and give an review of it. This is not a review but an initial opinion and is why I don't put much stock into their reviews of games.

Edited Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:29 pm
Posted Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:27 pm
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mark selleck

(jesters_race)

Australia
Alice Springs
NT

Hmm i think this review gives a false impression of the game. If I used this review to decide if i was going to buy the game i probably wouldn't. I luckly bought this game nearly 2 years ago and have loved it ever since, I really get the feeling that these guys havent played the game enough to understand how all the rules work in the game, such quotes like "tatics are already coming up...... then unfortunatly the game mechinics start happening, and everything you had planned went out the window." give me this impression as many ppl i know that play feel that there is alot more than luck to this game once they understand how all the rules work.

I have found even though there is luck in the game someone who plans and is good at hand managment will on most occations win the game. But to beable to plan and come up with good tactics you need to know the rules inside and out.

On the other hand maybe these guys don't have a tatical mind so they rely on the luck factor in the game. Myself i like to make my own luck

All in all if these guys didnt like the game thats their opion but i really feel the review dosnt give a true impression of the game at all.

Posted Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:48 am
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Oliver Paul

(murksofus)

Iceland
Reykjavik

So how many plays is enough to be able to judge a game? I've played Memoir 10 times (each time playing both sides), and I still feel it's too luck-based. Have I not played it enough?

How much is enough? Until I start liking it, like you?

Posted Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:42 am
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Luigi54

(luigi54)

Italy
Milano

Funny conclusions of the review which is otherweise very professionaly done.
What is considered a minus is where the game shines:
the players cannot activate whatever they want, but they have to "follow the orders", so that players must adapt themselves to the orders (i.e. the cards), even if seem to be not understanding what is going on on the battlefield. It can be sometimes very frustrating.
From the other side, it also happens, sometimes, to get very useful cards and that your game is going to be won very easily: everything is right!

This simulate very well how things in life are, many of them unpredictable and our experience is just to stay quite and find the best from a bad cards draw or make a good use of a good hand.

Posted Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:12 pm
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(rasmussen81)

United States

murksofus wrote:

So how many plays is enough to be able to judge a game? I've played Memoir 10 times (each time playing both sides), and I still feel it's too luck-based. Have I not played it enough?

How much is enough? Until I start liking it, like you?

At least a 'handfull' or times!! If you've played 10 times and still don't like the game, I can respect that. I might not agree with you, but at least you tried the game out and played enough to know what you like and dislike about the system.

It seems strange for someone to write a review of a game after playing it once...if I made a review (or rated the games in my collection) after playing them once, my scores would all be extremely low. Why? Because I haven't figured out how to play the game yet! I haven't gotten past trying to remember the rules enough to focus on the strategies for winning! I haven't played enough to see if my loss (or win) was lucky or if I actually did something right! whistle

Any review that is based on one play...or one scenario...doesn't carry much weight in my book! And it's unfortunate that people may only watch this review and not see a more developed view of the game. The issue for me isn't that this was a 'negative' review of the game, but that it was so uninformed. shake

Posted Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:19 pm
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Gustavo

(gmsa84)

Brazil
Hattiesburg
Mississippi

luigi54 wrote:

Funny conclusions of the review which is otherweise very professionaly done.
What is considered a minus is where the game shines:
the players cannot activate whatever they want, but they have to "follow the orders", so that players must adapt themselves to the orders (i.e. the cards), even if seem to be not understanding what is going on on the battlefield. It can be sometimes very frustrating.
From the other side, it also happens, sometimes, to get very useful cards and that your game is going to be won very easily: everything is right!

This simulate very well how things in life are, many of them unpredictable and our experience is just to stay quite and find the best from a bad cards draw or make a good use of a good hand.

Never thought on it this way. The game makes even more sense now.

Posted Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:21 pm
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mark selleck

(jesters_race)

Australia
Alice Springs
NT

murksofus wrote:

So how many plays is enough to be able to judge a game? I've played Memoir 10 times (each time playing both sides), and I still feel it's too luck-based. Have I not played it enough?

How much is enough? Until I start liking it, like you?

my point was that i don't think they have played enough to fully understand how all the rules work and how to take advantage of them even with an ordinary hand of cards. not about playing until they like it.

I just found that what they were saying in parts of the review (the quote i pointed out) proved to me that they could not recover from a bad hand and using their heads to work to a new stratagey. I just found that when i first started playing the game the luck factor came in alot but now that I know the game inside and out, the tactics seem to overtake the luck factor.

If people dont like the game thats all and good I just have a problem with what they said (re the quote above in last post) as it gives the impression that the game is broken.

Posted Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:48 pm
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Tanks Alot

(charlescab)

United States
Fort Mill
South Carolina

www.facebook.com/HistoricalBoardGames

I hate to repeat myself but pegasus bridge is the most difficult scenario to start with learning this game as the germans. Any scenario with all infantry or all tanks you will find yourself stuck with cards.
Also the germans start with 2 cards vs 6, which seems very unlikable at first play

Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:19 am
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(A_Denis)

Canada
Montréal
Québec

"Your tactics will solely rely on what command cards you drew, and the outcome of the battle dice"

No, your ~~tactics~~ strategy will make you build the hand that you need to make it happen, and the probabilities of the dice will influence the tactics you will use.

There is a lot of goodness in this game, pure fun brilliant ingenious repeatable addictive fun. I think you missed it.

Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:09 am
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Giancarlo Caltabiano

(Giancarlo Caltabiano)

Canada

Then they shouldn't "strongly suggest" you start with Pegasus Bridge if it's the first time you play it. Which is what's stated in the rulebook. Loss of points there. And where did you guys get the idea that we only played it once? We played it other times and in our experience came across the same problems.IE: Randomness of the cards and die rolls. Again, in our review we had to choose ONE scenario. We reviewed the FIRST scenario "Pegasus Bridge" because when you, as a consumer, buy Memoir 44, you will start to play the game in the Pegasus Bridge scenario. So, if the game is unbalanced when you first play it, shouldn't that issue be brought up? One of you was shocked and amazed that I compared it to a "miniature game". I've played many board games and many miniature games, and this one plays more like a miniature game then it does a board game. The ONLY difference is that Memoir 44 has cards. (Actually so does Malifaux have cards in its system rather than dice.) As I've said in the review, there's terrain, line of sight, and oh what's this??? omg miniatures!!! Now in terms of planning and tactic, I shouldn't have to come up with reasons as to why my orders aren't being received (ie not drawing the right command cards). I'm not playing a role-playing game. If I wanted to I'd stick to my GURPS campaign. There's enough randomness with this game, I don't need to justify it. It's the luck of the draw and dice roll. Regardless, if you lose men in your platoon or not they roll the same amount of dice? Really? Not my thing... why is that so inconceivable? Why can I not have different tastes than other gamers? How do you know MY experience when playing the game? Yes, in MY experiences with the game "the mechanics started to happen". I did not like them. Yet... I can see how others might like the game. Someone asked why we gave it a 6 and not a 2? Because we rate it on EVERYTHING. And the board, the miniatures, the rulebook, tiles etc... all top-notch quality. But, again, in my opinion, it's not my thing. Seems like myself, as a gamer, prefer to eliminate randomness all together. That's why we here at BtD LOVED Vasco Da Gamma, whereas a lot of other gamers and reviewers, didn't. It's personal experiences, and taste. And we will give our truthful and uncompromising views of a game. Hopefully, what we can provide you with is enough explanation of the rules and mechanics of the game, that you can then think for yourselves, and see if the game is for you.

Giancarlo Caltabiano.

Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:12 am
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Gastel Etswane

(Gastel)

Spain
Peterborough
Ontario

Giancarlo Caltabiano wrote:

Then they shouldn't "strongly suggest" you start with Pegasus Bridge if it's the first time you play it. Which is what's stated in the rulebook. Loss of points there. And where did you guys get the idea that we only played it once? We played it other times and in our experience came across the same problems.

A little over the top. Maybe that's what got so many people agitated in the first place. Your compliments and criticisms are so weighty at both ends of the scale, we don't quite know where you are going with this.

Giancarlo Caltabiano wrote:

And we will give our truthful and uncompromising views of a game.

Maybe you need to compromise a bit and consider a wider viewpoint of viewers rather than cookie cutter duplicates of yourselves.

I would agree that this thread has been a bit harsh on your review, but to respond so agressively has only given those words weight.

Again, this was a fine review, but your criticisms are too harsh to be heard, rather they are reacted to.

Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:47 am
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Luca Caltabiano

(Chez Geeks)

Canada

You just "liked" your own comment? LOL, amazing. I think you misinterpreted my passion for aggression. And in terms of "cookie cutters" we, are far from the norm of gamers. And, as stated many times before, we don't do reviews of boardgames for the elitists only. We're trying to reach a larger audience and open the venue to others so the community grows.And...since my compliments and criticism is so weighty on both ends, THAT'S why the score is an almost split with a 6 out of 10. Not everything is black and white. There's shade of greys. And if YOU don't like our viewpoint, there are plenty of other people who do. So stop watching us. We're not for you. See? Now THAT'S more aggressive

Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:19 am
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Giancarlo Caltabiano

(Giancarlo Caltabiano)

Canada

Sorry... wrote on y brother's account... That was actually ME writing that.

Giancarlo Caltabiano.

Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:21 am
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Robby Timmermans

(fatum)

Belgium
Wellen

Chez Geeks wrote:

And if YOU don't like our viewpoint, there are plenty of other people who do. So stop watching us. We're not for you. See? Now THAT'S more aggressive

Hehe, I would love to play a wargame against you and do some in game trash talk (which is I think the most fun sometimes).

About the review: I liked it. It clearly shows the randomness the game has. It is true that after playing several times you'll find ways to overcome this randomness (...a bit), but if you're into non luck euro games, then this game won't be your cup of tea.

I still will buy it sometime, but it isn't the highest on my want list. There are tons of gamers out there that don't want to play a game 4 or more times before grasping the concepts and/or tactics. Just as there are gamers that won't like Dixit, war of the ring, ...

Edited Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:10 pm
Posted Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:09 pm
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