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(PollutedMonkey)

Denmark

Check out papskubber.dk - the number one danish site about board gaming

Great review Tom and Sam. I think you did a good job at showing how the game offered interesting gameplay in a package that just didn't have any appeal to you.

Personally I don't care for the theme either.. Not because of any religious preference - but simply because I find it a little juvenile: "Blood splattered demons are awesome!" shake

Edited Mon Jun 6, 2011 3:41 pm
Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 3:40 pm
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Josh Morgan

(rhoubhe)

United States
Indianapolis
Indiana

I can understand, and appreciate that the theme isn't for everyone. But it is good to hear an honest review that strips away that portion of the game and recognizes it as a pretty fantastic design. It feels like our (board gamers) version of Starcraft, with the nearly perfect asymmetrical design of the various powers.

Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 3:50 pm
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Saxton Hale

(Yor Fizzlebeef)

What I get out of the dark theme of Warhammer is that, while the mythology is quite developed, you should take it as a bit tongue-in-cheek. The sheer overwhelming darkness and biblically epic themes (nothing is underwhelming, EVERYTHING is over the top, MILLIONS ARE CULLED etc. etc.) are often of such ridiculous proportions that it becomes a satire of itself

Some people (like me

) find some humour in it,
also, with a lack of a better word, it feels very... Heavy Metal?

Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 4:04 pm
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Max Maloney

(Dormammu)

United States
Portland
Oregon

rhoubhe wrote:

It feels like our (board gamers) version of Starcraft, with the nearly perfect asymmetrical design of the various powers.

Isn't that StarCraft: The Board Game?

Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 4:07 pm
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Mario Franco

(MKamui)

Colombia
Envigado
Antioquia

In the box should be said 13+ and the people who thinks the life is just withe and beautifull

Is a great great theme...I hope they do more "bad guys" games!!

Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 5:25 pm
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Max Maloney

(Dormammu)

United States
Portland
Oregon

PollutedMonkey wrote:

Personally I don't care for the theme either.. Not because of any religious preference - but simply because I find it a little juvenile: "Blood splattered demons are awesome!" shake

On the one hand I understand this, but I view it a little differently. Warhammer IS juvenile. I thought it was a cool idea to take the ridiculous themes of Warhammer and run with them.

Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 6:06 pm
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Doug Herring

(Dougmysticeye)

United States
Pflugerville
Texas

Clearly, this is a dark and adult game which will only, thematically, appeal to a select group. When I saw you had done a review I wondered how uou would approach it.

I think you did and excellent job at presenting the fact the game itself and well designed and plays very well while at the same time voicing your opinion about what is a major detractor for you.

Kudos to you.

Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 6:11 pm
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Rick Baptist

(SlikkRikk)

United States
Redlands
California

One of the best games of all time and I think the theme of evil gods battling is terrific. While I respect your opinions on the theme, I also think that it would be quite simple to overlook it and enjoy the game for what it is. I hope the copy goes to a good home!

Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 6:13 pm
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Samo Gosaric

(sgosaric)

Slovenia
Ljubljana

Nice review

just some points you haven't covered:
- game is best played with 4 and 4 player only.
- some people don't like the fact that game is balanced IF you're constantly actively blocking other players (kingmaking).

Oh - there is a way for humans (the Old World) to win as well - if nobody wins till the end of certain turn, all players loose and the Old World is victorious.

on the problematic theme:
I dunno, must be religious thing, or US thing, for me it's nothing special.
The art is on a level of comic book strips, it's a fictional universe after all in magical pseudo medieval world. How serious can you take that? It's not like you're playing Al-Kaida or something (though I would be fine with that as well...) I enjoy that there actually is a theme and has gameplay which matches. Another thing is that the corruption of humans is very abstracted - you don't actually kill people, or at least didn't feel that way to me. Basically you're just playing against other players/gods - for me the closest analogy would be 4 way wrestling federation match.

The so called human skin board, well it's not appalling (it's printed on cardboard, if this would be leather that would be another matter), it's just a bit confusing as it's not that readable.

But if we take a twist:you have 4 armies pillaging some territory and fighting between themselves. Would you prefer to theme it rather:
occupation of Germany after WW2?
private militias duke it out in post-invasion Iraq?
I actually think the fantasy wrapping make this much easier to swallow. I fail to see a huge difference between this and Cosmic Encounter in terms of art and theme.

Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 9:37 pm
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Kyle Smith

(Namrok)

United States
Herndon
Virginia

Say what you will about your own personal appreciation for the theme, you still have to admit that for the theme they choose, it is superbly well done. Not a single element of the game doesn't tie into the theme. Khorne being the god of violence abhors magic, and thus none of his cards have magic symbols. The various objectives for the gods, their particular cards and upgrades, the ways the play off one another. You can really get into character playing this game, and for that reason if no other shows how really well implemented the theme is. Even if you hate it, you have to at least admit that much.

Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 9:43 pm
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Takuto Tsunashi

(Kiraboshi)

sgosaric wrote:

on the problematic theme:
I dunno, must be religious thing, or US thing, for me it's nothing special.

Oh how very worldly-wise and European for you to have that attitude.

sgosaric wrote:

The art is on a level of comic book strips, it's a fictional universe after all in magical pseudo medieval world.

one in which everything is dreary, lurid and hopeless

sgosaric wrote:

How serious can you take that?

It's not about taking it "serious [sic]" but about the overall unappealing quality of the theme and artwork. I can't speak for Tom, but the bottom line for me is that the artwork is simply not something I want to look at. Unlike history or high art that reflects — literally or symbolically — the heartfelt experiences of real people, Warhammer is a world invented to be a vehicle for mere entertainment. If there's anything unappealing or wretched about it, that can be attributed entirely to the creative will of its authors and there's no supervening reason for me to extend my forbearance.

sgosaric wrote:

or It's not like you're playing Al-Kaida or something (though I would be fine with that as well...)

How about the KKK? The interahamwe? I don't play games as an affected exercise in ignoring things that are right in front of my face. Rather, I play them for my own personal enjoyment.

sgosaric wrote:

I enjoy that there actually is a theme and has gameplay which matches. Another thing is that the corruption of humans is very abstracted - you don't actually kill people, or at least didn't feel that way to me. Basically you're just playing against other players/gods - for me the closest analogy would be 4 way wrestling federation match.

The so called human skin board, well it's not appalling (it's printed on cardboard, if this would be leather that would be another matter), it's just a bit confusing as it's not that readable.

I agree it's not appalling. It's just gross. That's bad enough, because just gross is just not enjoyable.

sgosaric wrote:

But if we take a twist:you have 4 armies pillaging some territory and fighting between themselves. Would you prefer to theme it rather:
occupation of Germany after WW2?
private militias duke it out in post-invasion Iraq?
I actually think the fantasy wrapping make this much easier to swallow.

You can point to some tokens and say they represent whatever you want, but that's not the same as having graphic artwork. Furthermore, games, like all creative works, manifest the intent of their creators. Historical wargames present conflicts as a study in military strategy and tactics. Very rarely (never, in my experience) do they come off as revelling in bloodshed. Setting is not the only aspect of theme and presentation.

sgosaric wrote:

I fail to see a huge difference between this and Cosmic Encounter in terms of art and theme.

Wilful blindness?

Edited Mon Jun 6, 2011 11:38 pm
Posted Mon Jun 6, 2011 11:37 pm
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Artur Borges

(brutalblind)

Do you really hate the theme so much that you have to comment on every single post defending the game?

Posted Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:27 am
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Paul S

(Beloch)

United Kingdom

DARK IN HERE, ISN'T IT?

I would have liked to see 2 scores in this review: a) score as a game, without reference to the theme; b) score as a thematic game.

I can't help but think, having heard the main content of the review, that this might have led to a 4/-3 sort of review.

I think that would've been more useful, than the 1 up/2 down thing we saw, which really said nothing about the game (save re: theme).

I completely respect the reviewers' views (whilst disagreeing with them 130%) - but on a boardgame website, I would have liked to see slightly more neutral comments about the game, apart from the theme.

Still, an enjoyable review, and I'll thumb it on that basis!

Edited Tue Jun 7, 2011 2:31 pm
Posted Tue Jun 7, 2011 12:51 am
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Brian

(Bilson)

United States
Oswego
Illinois

One of my favorite games! With all the griping we do about unoriginal themes, you have to hand it to Chaos in the Old World: It's different. :-) meeple

Posted Tue Jun 7, 2011 2:53 am
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Alex Smith

(MobLegend)

United States
BETHESDA
Maryland

Maps have been printed on leather since the dawn of maps--as have many other data.

My question: Where did Miami Dice get the idea that the map is printed on human skin?

Please show me where it says that this is human skin. Or else it was simply guessed.

Posted Tue Jun 7, 2011 5:17 am
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Cameron Chien

(Zeede)

United States
Rancho Cucamonga
California

My main gripe is that the game really only plays with four players, and that's too restrictive for me. I have the same issue with Dungeon Lord.

Cameron

Posted Tue Jun 7, 2011 5:30 am
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Pasta Batman

(pastabatman)

United States
Tustin
California

MobLegend wrote:

Please show me where it says that this is human skin. Or else it was simply guessed.

The board's artist, Andrew Navaro, says so in the official trailer, at about the 3:15 mark:

Edited Tue Jun 7, 2011 5:40 am
Posted Tue Jun 7, 2011 5:39 am
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X Topher

(gattz)

United States
Plainfield
Illinois

Some possible family-friendly re-themes for this game:

"Contamination in the Old Garden"
Your pieces are asymmetrical weeds and sprouts trying to maintain control of the garden! Steal nutrients from flowers through area dispersal and domination!

"Peace in the Aged Kingdom"
Paladins trying to bring unity among the wonderful realms! "My kingdom shall be more peaceful than yours!" All players win if they agree to just shake hands after the first turn.

"Beauty in the Cosmetic Surgery Office"
Players represent a population of deformed people attempting to gain enough influence to get plastic surgery so they can have the appearance of everyone else. The map is printed with a piece of stretched skin! (Actual board can be used. Hide those wrinkles!)

Posted Tue Jun 7, 2011 9:48 am
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Rick Baptist

(SlikkRikk)

United States
Redlands
California

Zeede wrote:

My main gripe is that the game really only plays with four players, and that's too restrictive for me. I have the same issue with Dungeon Lord.

Cameron

Disagree -- plays fine with 3, it's just four is better.

Posted Tue Jun 7, 2011 3:14 pm
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Jacob Russell

(JonJacob)

Canada
Vancouver
British Columbia

Bullshit!

Before I say anything this has to be one of the most passive aggressive self righteous posts around in awhile, but kudos to the author for taking a stab at a shitty topic none the less. Setting the tone for proper aggression here.

Kiraboshi wrote:

Oh how very worldly-wise and European for you to have that attitude.

It's always good to start with smug self righteousness and sarcasm.

Kiraboshi wrote:

It's not about taking it "serious [sic]" but about the overall unappealing quality of the theme and artwork. I can't speak for Tom, but the bottom line for me is that the artwork is simply not something I want to look at. Unlike history or high art that reflects — literally or symbolically — the heartfelt experiences of real people, Warhammer is a world invented to be a vehicle for mere entertainment. If there's anything unappealing or wretched about it, that can be attributed entirely to the creative will of its authors and there's no supervening reason for me to extend my forbearance.

mere entertainment what's wrong with that? Are you trying to tell me that the games you play focus on either history or high art? Bullshit. They must be magical games I've never seen before. All the ridiculously over abstracted historical games are no more edifying then this or pitchcar... and "high art" games. Do tell.

The look is subjective and hardly grounds for dismissal of the game. I really like the look of this game and find the board appealing as well as functional. Plus the box cover is my favorite of all time. History and high art can certainly express the "real experiences of real people" but they can also express lies and deceit.. and if your looking for that from games. I have to tell you, there are better sources.

Kiraboshi wrote:

How about the KKK? The interahamwe? I don't play games as an affected exercise in ignoring things that are right in front of my face. Rather, I play them for my own personal enjoyment.

First, if your going to dismiss the game on grounds that it's not historical you can hardly put it up against historical examples. That's just inconsistent.

But my answer is yes. Why not? I play slave owners in n Peurto Rico without question. I fight to be the Germans in Tide of Iron (nice tanks!) who are also Nazis ya know. I try to help Jack the Ripper escape in Mr.Jack. Most importantly I am an adult who can make these choices and still be a Christian who loves the philosophies of Jesus without ever wondering if my faith has gone astray because I rolled a die that represented the number of people I had destroyed.

Kiraboshi wrote:

I agree it's not appalling. It's just gross. That's bad enough, because just gross is just not enjoyable.

There is an appeal to some people to the gross or grotesque. There's entire movements based around it. It's a viable form of expression.

Kiraboshi wrote:

You can point to some tokens and say they represent whatever you want, but that's not the same as having graphic artwork. Furthermore, games, like all creative works, manifest the intent of their creators. Historical wargames present conflicts as a study in military strategy and tactics. Very rarely (never, in my experience) do they come off as revelling in bloodshed. Setting is not the only aspect of theme and presentation.

You over estimate the loftiness and goals of wargames. People play games for fun and are attracted to themes based on their personalties. Being interested in wargames over this is not inherently better... but you try to make it sound that way for some reason. But even then, I can find high art in the fantastic and the grotesque. Many can. Although that's not what is happening here or in any game I've ever seen.

Posted Wed Jun 8, 2011 3:11 am
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Liam Liam

(monkeyhandz)

Scotland

Excellent review.

Thanks for expressing your opinions as to the theme in an open and reasoned manner. Separating emotive theme from mechanics is a difficult thing to do but I feel like you did this well. Preforming the dual and in this case conflicting duties of citizen of the world and reviewer. There is something here about subjectivity, freedom of speech and critical thought.

Personally, I find games that re-enact recent human suffering, such as Memoir '44, Letters from Whitechapel or The Looney Bin, more disturbing than Chaos in the Old World's mythical setting and diabolical goal.

To me Chaos in the Old World seems knowingly absurd/stupid, it tries to be so dark using skulls and other touchstones to appeal to stereotypical 13 year-old fans of 'death-metal- laugh

' that it feels farcical. In contrast the other games I have mentioned and their darkness tap into reality and it's real horrors.

Edited Wed Jun 8, 2011 2:42 pm
Posted Wed Jun 8, 2011 1:07 pm
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Marc

(Elektro)

Germany
Tuebingen

monkeyhandz wrote:

Excellent review.

Thanks for expressing your opinions as to the theme in an open and reasoned manner. Separating emotive theme from mechanics is a difficult thing to do but I feel like you did this well. Preforming the dual and in this case conflicting duties of citizen of the world and reviewer. There is something here about subjectivity, freedom of speech and critical thought.

Personally, I find games that re-enact recent human suffering, such as Memoir '44, Letters from Whitechapel or The Looney Bin, more disturbing than Chaos in the Old World's mythical setting and diabolical goal.

To me Chaos in the Old World seems knowingly absurd/stupid, it tries to be so dark using skulls and other touchstones to appeal to stereotypical 13 year-old fans of 'death-metal- laugh

' that it feels farcical. In contrast the other games I have mentioned and their darkness tap into reality and it's real horrors.

Very good contribution, thank you, I see this exactly the same way. It feels weird that they have so much problems with its unrealistic fantasy theme, but on the other hand love games like M44 that re-enacts cruelties which really happened. Smells a bit like double moral standards if you ask me.

Edited Wed Jun 8, 2011 4:35 pm
Posted Wed Jun 8, 2011 3:35 pm
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Takuto Tsunashi

(Kiraboshi)

JonJacob wrote:

Kiraboshi wrote:

It's not about taking it "serious [sic]" but about the overall unappealing quality of the theme and artwork. I can't speak for Tom, but the bottom line for me is that the artwork is simply not something I want to look at. Unlike history or high art that reflects — literally or symbolically — the heartfelt experiences of real people, Warhammer is a world invented to be a vehicle for mere entertainment. If there's anything unappealing or wretched about it, that can be attributed entirely to the creative will of its authors and there's no supervening reason for me to extend my forbearance.

mere entertainment what's wrong with that?

I never said there was anything wrong with it. This is a recurring theme throughout your post that you take isolated phrases, words or sometimes not even those and spin them into arguments of your own construction that you then impute to me. It's also deceptive for you to add emphasis to my words in a way that changes the thrust of my argument (from the point made in the last sentence of the paragraph).

JonJacob wrote:

Are you trying to tell me that the games you play focus on either history or high art? Bullshit. They must be magical games I've never seen before. All the ridiculously over abstracted historical games are no more edifying then this or pitchcar... and "high art" games. Do tell.

I never said that or anything like it. I would tell, if there were anything that I had actually said upon which I could elaborate.

JonJacob wrote:

The look is subjective and hardly grounds for dismissal of the game.

I did not dismiss the game. I only ever defended my negative appraisal of it. Perhaps you can tell us which aspects can and which cannot be used in evaluating a game or nominate a method for objective assessment in contradistinction against my subjective one.

JonJacob wrote:

I really like the look of this game and find the board appealing as well as functional. Plus the box cover is my favorite of all time. History and high art can certainly express the "real experiences of real people" but they can also express lies and deceit.. and if your looking for that from games. I have to tell you, there are better sources.

"I never said that" round 3.

JonJacob wrote:

Kiraboshi wrote:

How about the KKK? The interahamwe? I don't play games as an affected exercise in ignoring things that are right in front of my face. Rather, I play them for my own personal enjoyment.

First, if your going to dismiss the game on grounds that it's not historical you can hardly put it up against historical examples. That's just inconsistent.

"I never said that" round 4.

JonJacob wrote:

But my answer is yes. Why not? I play slave owners in n Peurto Rico without question.

There is no mention of slaves or slavery in Puerto Rico, so they are present only by your own (questionable) extrapolations. That aside, I think that if you read my post carefully instead of misrepresenting what I said you can discover the dis-analogy.

JonJacob wrote:

I fight to be the Germans in Tide of Iron (nice tanks!) who are also Nazis ya know.

Here your extrapolations are more founded, but they're still extrapolations rather than elements included in the game. For all ToI says about Nazi atrocities, in its setting they might not occur at all. Hitler may award fabulous prizes to all the Jews or he may be a talking donkey with an afro.

JonJacob wrote:

I try to help Jack the Ripper escape in Mr.Jack. Most importantly I am an adult who can make these choices and still be a Christian who loves the philosophies of Jesus without ever wondering if my faith has gone astray because I rolled a die that represented the number of people I had destroyed.

I'm not a Christian, but I respect the Bible. What do you think about the following advice?

Philippians 4:8 wrote:

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

Now the passage can't possibly mean that one should ignore bad things in the world or their effect on the human experience. Conservatively, we can leave aside marginal cases and ask, what is the core of things that one should definitely avoid entertaining in one's thoughts? I would offer the fantastic and monstrous cruelties of contrived bugbears in a fictional setting that does not illuminate the human condition nor offer any heroism or even possibility for good to prevail but seemingly proffers the aforementioned exploits for their own intrinsic entertainment and "value." There are many games that pit good against evil, but this game is just an orgy of evil, torment and destruction.

JonJacob wrote:

Kiraboshi wrote:

I agree it's not appalling. It's just gross. That's bad enough, because just gross is just not enjoyable.

There is an appeal to some people to the gross or grotesque. There's entire movements based around it. It's a viable form of expression.

Which expressions made are not in a viable form? That's merely a tautology.

JonJacob wrote:

You over estimate the loftiness and goals of wargames.

You misconstrue my point in bringing them up in the first place.

JonJacob wrote:

People play games for fun and are attracted to themes based on their personalties. Being interested in wargames over this is not inherently better... but you try to make it sound that way for some reason.

"I never said that" round 5.

JonJacob wrote:

But even then, I can find high art in the fantastic and the grotesque. Many can. Although that's not what is happening here or in any game I've ever seen.

Nor any I've seen.

Edited Wed Jun 8, 2011 5:32 pm
Posted Wed Jun 8, 2011 5:22 pm
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Mike Forrey

(bearn)

United States
Yoe
Pennsylvania

You really have to overlook the theme of the game if you don't understand just how dark the warhammer universe is. The games mechanics alone make it easily one of the top 10 best games for 4 players. The game does suffer a little with less than 4 though so it's not really one you want to play with less. However the new Horned rat expansion adds a 5th player to the game and takes the game to even further heights of enjoyment.

For the theme that they are portraying with the board and cards it's actually quite tame when compared to the real choas gods interpretation in the Gw lore. I think you would find it quite disturbing if you knew the true lore of Slaanesh to be honest.

Edited Thu Jun 9, 2011 6:21 pm
Posted Wed Jun 8, 2011 9:35 pm
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Jonathan Moriarity

(Shameless)

Canada
Toronto
Ontario

It's just a religious thing. Nothing necessarily wrong with that.

My girlfriend was raised in a Jewish household, and although she grew up to completely and utterly reject the doctrine, she still can't eat a cheeseburger without feeling sick. It's not a choice for her, it's just how she was indoctrinated.

I don't blame her for not being able to enjoy meat and cheese together. Similarly, I don't blame Tom and Sam for not being able to enjoy a board game about imaginary gods and demons.

Posted Thu Jun 9, 2011 5:36 pm
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Max Maloney

(Dormammu)

United States
Portland
Oregon

Kiraboshi wrote:

JonJacob wrote:

I fight to be the Germans in Tide of Iron (nice tanks!) who are also Nazis ya know.

Here your extrapolations are more founded, but they're still extrapolations rather than elements included in the game. For all ToI says about Nazi atrocities, in its setting they might not occur at all. Hitler may award fabulous prizes to all the Jews or he may be a talking donkey with an afro.

Congratulations on being more offensive in that last sentence than every thing ever published for Warhammer combined.

Edited Thu Jun 9, 2011 5:51 pm
Posted Thu Jun 9, 2011 5:48 pm
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Takuto Tsunashi

(Kiraboshi)

Dormammu wrote:

Kiraboshi wrote:

JonJacob wrote:

I fight to be the Germans in Tide of Iron (nice tanks!) who are also Nazis ya know.

Here your extrapolations are more founded, but they're still extrapolations rather than elements included in the game. For all ToI says about Nazi atrocities, in its setting they might not occur at all. Hitler may award fabulous prizes to all the Jews or he may be a talking donkey with an afro.

Congratulations on being more offensive in that last sentence than every thing ever published for Warhammer combined.

Yep, time to contact the Human Rights Commission because I just:

☒ ~~Denied the historicity of an atrocity.~~

☒ ~~Made fun of victims.~~

☑ Made light of the possible non-victimization of potential victims in a game of toy soldiers that never mentions atrocities and in which in all other respects you create an alternate history through the play.

Moreover, here's yet more evidence of the futility of the entire conversation. Y'all just won't read. I never wrote that the Warhammer world is offensive to me, only that I find the theme and artwork unpleasant. That doesn't matter though, because you've built a procrustean bed of your preconceptions — evident from the very first sentence of the very first post I quoted in this exchange — in which you will fit every person who claims not to like the game for its theme. Nothing I write or can write will change this.

Posted Thu Jun 9, 2011 9:36 pm
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Paul S

(Beloch)

United Kingdom

DARK IN HERE, ISN'T IT?

Thumbed for the use of the word "procrustean". Had to Google it.

Disappointed that it wasn't some form of lobby on behalf of pie lovers

Posted Thu Jun 9, 2011 9:50 pm
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Marco Arnaudo

(marnaudo)

United States
Bloomington
Indiana

"My spoon is too big!"

DISCLAIMER: I skimmed through the conversation above but haven't actually read it, so my post is not a comment on it.

Love the mechanics (balanced 4-player asymmetrical game play takes some genius to establish), love the art, love the miniatures and love the theme. So refreshing and sheer FUN! It's like playing a dungeon crawl game where every player gets to maneuver ugly monsters. Playing an evil demon in CitOW doesn't make me feel any worse than being the master/keeper/whatever in Descent or in similar games, where a player maneuvers repugnant creatures to the intent of slaughtering noble and virtuous heroes. Isn't that pretty bad and often graphic too?

CitOW is clearly a game that takes some irony to play. When we play it we have always a lot of laughs, because we are really kind of good guys, you know, secure jobs, family values, the entire package, so the silliness of us impersonating the dark lords of evil and deceit and purulence is just too ridiculous to even start taking it seriously. Basically we end up parodying the theme, and having a great time while doing so.

Big thumbs up from me!

p.s. and thank you for the review!

Posted Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:39 am
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Jack

(senorcoo)

United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island

Marco - it also helps to know the background - either from the miniatures game or the novels. The world is a pretty miserable place. Even the role-playing game is pretty grim, where survival alone is generally considered victory. In the review above, I believe that they forgot to mention that the players can lose as a group if the Old World deck (6 or 7 cards, can't recall) is exhausted. There is hope for the people of the world to survive - just not much.

Posted Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:29 pm
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Jack

(senorcoo)

United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island

Dormammu wrote:

Congratulations on being more offensive in that last sentence than every thing ever published for Warhammer combined.

Wow. That's saying something.

Posted Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:33 pm
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Marco Arnaudo

(marnaudo)

United States
Bloomington
Indiana

"My spoon is too big!"

senorcoo wrote:

In the review above, I believe that they forgot to mention that the players can lose as a group if the Old World deck (6 or 7 cards, can't recall) is exhausted. There is hope for the people of the world to survive - just not much.

yes, this thought can help one digesting the game in case one just can't stop taking it seriously. Also, in case those people don't survive, I believe it is kind of important to remember that those people ARE NOT REAL!

In the old tv-show Alf the planet Melmac exploded because EVERYONE on Melmac turned on their hair-dryer at the same time!, but I don't think that means that the writers and the fans of the series 1) 'endorse' / 'revel in' catastrophes of planetary proportions 2) are 'disrespectful' of the people of Melmac.

Posted Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:47 pm
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Jack

(senorcoo)

United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island

Like I tell my 5 year-old daughter. It's just pretend. whistle

Posted Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:54 pm
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Hunter Shelburne

(Weapon)

United States
San Marcos/Hempstead
Texas

Knowing is half the battle.

senorcoo wrote:

Like I tell my 5 year-old daughter. It's just pretend. whistle

Its all fun and games until someones flayed skin gets used as a boardgame.

I love this theme.

Posted Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:40 am
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Dan Poole

(voynix)

United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina

Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!!

We're charging our battery. And now we're full of energy. We are the robots. We're functioning automatik. And we are dancing mechanik. We are the robots

I really enjoy Tom Vasel/Dice Tower reviews in general. BUT this (in my opinion) shows how pointless a review is when it is reviewed by someone who has an automatic dislike of the theme.

If the tables were turned. Let's say there was a game out there that focused on NASCAR, American Idol, stories of the bible or something along those lines. I would never ever play it; I know I would not enjoy because I would automatically hate the theme. Therefore, I would be the wrong person to render an opinion.

Posted Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:30 pm
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Guido Gloor

(haslo)

Switzerland
Ostermundigen
Bern

The statement below is false.

The statement above is correct.

voynix wrote:

I really enjoy Tom Vasel/Dice Tower reviews in general. BUT this (in my opinion) shows how pointless a review is when it is reviewed by someone who has an automatic dislike of the theme.

If the tables were turned. Let's say there was a game out there that focused on NASCAR, American Idol, stories of the bible or something along those lines. I would never ever play it; I know I would not enjoy because I would automatically hate the theme. Therefore, I would be the wrong person to render an opinion.

I haven't seen the review, but I also will not watch it exactly because of this. I love the game, I love the theme in all its maybe juvenile glory (heck, we're talking about this on a site that is dedicated to playing board games) and I love how well the theme and the mechanics tie together to form a wonderful experience.

Seeing this wonderful composition torn apart by somebody who I know not to like the theme the slightest bit is not in my interest.

Edited Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:00 am
Posted Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:00 am
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Jack

(senorcoo)

United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island

There are plenty of other reviews by other folks that you can check out as well.

Posted Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:24 pm
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Sebastian Grawan

(rashktah)

Germany
Edemissen/Peine

It's a, hands down, brilliant game.

I do love the theme, but I can understand why some people don't.

Posted Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:06 pm
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Guido Gloor

(haslo)

Switzerland
Ostermundigen
Bern

The statement below is false.

The statement above is correct.

senorcoo wrote:

There are plenty of other reviews by other folks that you can check out as well.

No need, it's steadily in my top 3 ever since it came out

Gonna pick up the Horned Rat today, I didn't realize that's out already until yesterday!

Edited Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:35 am
Posted Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:35 am
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Adam B.

(AbundantChoice)

United States

Massachusetts

gattz wrote:

Some possible family-friendly re-themes for this game:
"Contamination in the Old Garden"
Your pieces are asymmetrical weeds and sprouts trying to maintain control of the garden! Steal nutrients from flowers through area dispersal and domination!

I would actually play the heck out of a game with this theme that featured gameplay kind of like Chaos in the Old World!

Soil and Sun as resources... Dandeliions vs Vines vs Fungus vs Crabgrass with some asymetrical elements (fungus can grow for free on defeated plants, vines can expand out one space per turn for free, etc) a garden deck full of bugs and plant-eaters, planned garden vs lawn spaces to replace "populous" versus regular spaces.... hmm... this just might work...

Posted Sun Jun 19, 2011 7:03 pm
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Jack

(senorcoo)

United States
Cumberland
Rhode Island

And then add zombies!! zombie

Posted Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:12 am
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Guido Van Horn

(GuidoVanHorn)

United States
Othello
Washington

Tom, you probably like to play the bad guy in games because you are a good person. Since games are about fantasy, you get to be someone you aren't for a brief time. People who are rotten beneath the surface have a need to be good guys in fantasy.

that's why actors who play creepy people are generally good people, and guys who always portray nice guys are usually creeps.

Posted Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:16 am
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Robin Kahlbom

(PluTT)

Sweden

I don't understand your reasoning. I find this game to be more tasteless when it comes to theme http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8kWDTOMNBc and yet you hardly mention it as a negative thing.

Posted Wed Jul 6, 2011 10:04 am
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František Orálek

(Imenhotep)

Czech Republic
Blansko
Unspecified

I think thats very interesting how opinions on boardgames depend on nationality.

When you look at Labyrinth: The War on Terror, 2001-? forum, also very good game. You can read here interesting opinions on game theme.

I agree with you that, it "must be religious thing, or US thing." I am not expert on other nationality morale or opinions, but I think that there are significant cultural differences which are hard to understand.

Our country has most atheists in Europe and general approach to religion is very different from US becuase of controversial historical role of catholic church here.

I could imagine, that when you play chaos in the old world in public place majority of people probably don't like graphic design of this and demonic theme be not problem for them. I could also imagine, if you play wargame on public places with coloured German SS army from WW2 it could make very bad opinions on game form older people because of theme. The same problem probably with gasme with inqisition theme. I could also imagine that the game with the same graphics and rules on themes like Iraq, Vietnam make no bad opinions on game because of theme.

So 1 thing for everyone:

RESPECT THE OPINION OF OTHERS

When someone from other country make videoreview and give game minuses for demonic theme, respect it please.

For me is demonic theme and sharp graphic design plus because thats exactly warhammer universe and thumbs up for courage to make game with deamonic game with that "heavy" graphics design in religious country because this is real freedom = if I make board game with controversial theme and know that this make discourage to buy this game and lower my profit and decide not make another game with elves. This is real freedom in boardgame creativity.

I think that best advantage of game was not mentioned. Players MUST act like chaos gods. In the other board games you make decisions if punish other players. Here if you play Khorne you must act like bloodseeking psychopat and attack everybody everytime. As tzeenetch you must mess others players plan. Game not allow you to play your game because you are good guy like in other games, you must play like bad god. If you play RPG, lot of people don't really play their roles but play themeselves, here you have no such luxury.For example Battlestar galactica board game is very good game whitch is based on prediction, that majority of players will accuse other players from tretchery. If you have bad gaming group people dont like it because don't understand spirit of game wchich is not written in rules. In this game is spirit of game is the whole game - rules, theme, graphics. This is biggest advantage.

Edited Thu Jul 7, 2011 12:21 pm
Posted Thu Jul 7, 2011 11:57 am
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Tom DeFrank

(DeFrank)

United States
Canton
Ohio

Sure was nice of big man to give everyone permission to like the game if they want to at the end of the video.

Posted Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:37 pm
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Player One

(Dice is Right)

voynix wrote:

I really enjoy Tom Vasel/Dice Tower reviews in general. BUT this (in my opinion) shows how pointless a review is when it is reviewed by someone who has an automatic dislike of the theme.

If the tables were turned. Let's say there was a game out there that focused on NASCAR, American Idol, stories of the bible or something along those lines. I would never ever play it; I know I would not enjoy because I would automatically hate the theme. Therefore, I would be the wrong person to render an opinion.

I think you guys are being way too hard on Tom here. You act like he didn't even open the box because it had the word "demon" on it, then spent the rest of his time preaching a sermon. In reality, in a 12:50 review, he spent about 12 minutes and 20 seconds talking about how great this game was, and 30 seconds explaining that the theme wasn't for him. Disagree with him all you like, but there's no way you can say he didn't give the game a fair shake.

Posted Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:35 pm
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Christopher Scatliff

(Smoo)

Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba

Dovahkin! No!

I hate overtext but love irony.

Dice is Right wrote:

I think you guys are being way too hard on Tom here. You act like he didn't even open the box because it had the word "demon" on it, then spent the rest of his time preaching a sermon. In reality, in a 12:50 review, he spent about 12 minutes and 20 seconds talking about how great this game was, and 30 seconds explaining that the theme wasn't for him. Disagree with him all you like, but there's no way you can say he didn't give the game a fair shake.

But his 30 seconds were spent giving the game a thumb down (how does that convey "how great the game was"?) and claiming that the game was made for "kindergarten to third graders" or people he would recoil from.

If he can judge me as childish for liking the theme, then I can judge him in return. I think one of the modern mythologies has a saying about that somewhere...

Posted Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:21 pm
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Player One

(Dice is Right)

Smoo wrote:

Dice is Right wrote:

I think you guys are being way too hard on Tom here. You act like he didn't even open the box because it had the word "demon" on it, then spent the rest of his time preaching a sermon. In reality, in a 12:50 review, he spent about 12 minutes and 20 seconds talking about how great this game was, and 30 seconds explaining that the theme wasn't for him. Disagree with him all you like, but there's no way you can say he didn't give the game a fair shake.

But his 30 seconds were spent giving the game a thumb down (how does that convey "how great the game was"?) and claiming that the game was made for "kindergarten to third graders" or people he would recoil from.

If he can judge me as childish for liking the theme, then I can judge him in return. I think one of the modern mythologies has a saying about that somewhere...

His basic message was, "It was a great game, but I couldn't get past the theme. If you can, you'll like it" If you watch the entire review, it's pretty obvious that he really liked everything else about the game. As far as this thumb rating system goes, one thumb down seems to be the equlivalent of 2/4 stars (with two down being the worst and two up being the best). So one tumb down isn't exactly a total dump on the game.

And the kindergaten comment was obvious sarcasm based on how mature the content of the game was. He didn't really take any swipes at the fans of the game himself, but reading all these comments, it seems most Warhammer fans don't mind admitting how julvenile the universe is.

Posted Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:52 pm
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Alex H.

(alex352)

Germany
Würzburg / Aachen

Wow, what's wrong having a reviewer
a) acknowledging that CitOW has good mechanics
b) separating his judgement on the me mechanics from the one on the theme
and thus ensuring that people who might also be turned off by the theme don't end up hugely disappointed?

I rate CitOW a 10, the only game besides Twilight Struggle to get this rating from me. Yet I can understand people who would rather not play it. What I don't like is when some users here write about the game as if it were completely and utterly rubbish (not pointing at anyone specific, just go to the forums and you will find this kind of attitide). This has NOT happened in the video so what's the big deal? Can't some folks accept that the theme is not for everyone? Would you expect every gamer to find Power Grid's theme exciting? Or Agricola's?

In my opinion a review is valuable when it tells interested readers/watchers why they may like it or not. Tom did not go into the mechanics as much as I would have liked him to do but hey, in the end the pros and cons are layed out so the video is pretty useful.
Remember how Tom will handle a review of a game he REALLY dislikes (Vasco da Gama, anyone?).

So in the end I will give this video one thumb up thumbsup

... and one thumb down thumbsdown

for the ensuing discussion (mainly because of the aggressive tone it temporarily adopts, not because I want to discourage discussion).

Posted Thu Sep 1, 2011 10:15 am
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Shane Larsen

(thedacker)

United States
Salt Lake City
Utah

GuidoVanHorn wrote:

that's why actors who play creepy people are generally good people, and guys who always portray nice guys are usually creeps.

Huh?...

Posted Thu Sep 8, 2011 4:14 am
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Tadeu Zubaran

(tkzubaran)

Germany
Berlin

Dead on.

PollutedMonkey wrote:

Great review Tom and Sam. I think you did a good job at showing how the game offered interesting gameplay in a package that just didn't have any appeal to you.

Personally I don't care for the theme either.. Not because of any religious preference - but simply because I find it a little juvenile: "Blood splattered demons are awesome!" shake

Posted Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:06 pm
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Tadeu Zubaran

(tkzubaran)

Germany
Berlin

Imenhotep wrote:

RESPECT THE OPINION OF OTHERS

My opinion is that you should not respect other peoples opinion, and you should respect my opinion by not saying that I should respect other peoples opinion

Posted Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:39 pm
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Blank Francis

(blankfrancis)

New Zealand

Can I just say, it's pronounced "eh(rhymes with bay)-symmetrical".

Edited Thu Mar 8, 2012 12:06 am
Posted Thu Mar 8, 2012 12:05 am
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