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Subject: Arguing against Data Raven in Weyland Tag 'n Bag rss

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Kevin
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Data raven has made it into a large majority of the Weyland Scorched Earth decks I've seen. The synergy and cost-effectiveness are obvious. Two things make data raven good:
- It's a mere 4 credits for a piece of ice that, at best, costs the runner 2 clicks and 5 credits to get through untagged assuming you don't pump the trace.
- If you're ahead of the runner on money and he has no way of breaking the subroutine or tag/meat damage protection, running through it is suicidal.

But then there are the downsides:
- It's vastly inferior to all of Weyland's in-faction small ice on those turn 1 runs against central servers: Ice Wall, Shadow, and Caduceus all cost far less or hurt the runner more. It's also inferior to every other piece of ICE on the last turn, when either the runner or corp is on match point. 4 credits for a piece of ICE that does no damage to the runner initially and has the added downside of being completely porous the minute the runner chooses not to care about tags is the worst of both worlds.

- I can't think of a single serious runner deck which doesn't run one or more of plascrete carapace, link, or a cost-effective sentry breaker (e.g. mimic + strength reduction), which means the Raven is sometimes useless and usually just good for predictably handing out its encounter tag.

- There's no good place for it. It may be enough to keep non-criminals out of HQ, but then again a Pop-up Window usually does that too. In front of R&D it's a medium dig waiting to happen, although to be a fair a well-chosen second piece of ice helps a lot. Alone in front of a melange mining corp it presents a nice a nice Catch-22 for the runner, but I don't feel this 2-card combo is enough to move away from the airtight transaction and agenda-based economy that only Weyland gets to field.

- It competes with a large pool of good in-faction or neutral sentries for deck space.

- SEA Source is strictly better at threatening the Scorched Earth kill. Both cards threaten the out-of-turn tag if you're ahead on money. Data Raven has the small advantage of not costing a click on your Scorched Earth turn, but SEA Source can't be countered by a sentry breaker and protects all of your servers, not just the one on which a Data Raven is installed.

I certainly wouldn't argue that Data Raven is bad, and I'm sure you can find lots of successful Weyland decks which include it. But looking at the New York regionals winning decklist (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/993162/new-york-regionals-re...) and playing a similar deck myself made me realize that there may be much better options.

In any case, I wanted to see what the community thought and hopefully taunt some fellow netrunners into discussing a single card in the context of a single deck archetype, since I find that entire decklists tend to overwhelm me and leave a bit too much to discuss in terms of strategy.
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Alejandro G.
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Personally, Data Raven no longer scares me. My deck tends to run about 12-14 link and most trace heavy ICE, I can simply walk through now.
 
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Steven Tu
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Corvus_ wrote:
Data raven has made it into a large majority of the Weyland Scorched Earth decks I've seen. The synergy and cost-effectiveness are obvious. Two things make data raven good:
- It's a mere 4 credits for a piece of ice that, at best, costs the runner 2 clicks and 5 credits to get through untagged assuming you don't pump the trace.
- If you're ahead of the runner on money and he has no way of breaking the subroutine or tag/meat damage protection, running through it is suicidal.

But then there are the downsides:
- It's vastly inferior to all of Weyland's in-faction small ice on those turn 1 runs against central servers: Ice Wall, Shadow, and Caduceus all cost far less or hurt the runner more. It's also inferior to every other piece of ICE on the last turn, when either the runner or corp is on match point. 4 credits for a piece of ICE that does no damage to the runner initially and has the added downside of being completely porous the minute the runner chooses not to care about tags is the worst of both worlds.

- I can't think of a single serious runner deck which doesn't run one or more of plascrete carapace, link, or a cost-effective sentry breaker (e.g. mimic + strength reduction), which means the Raven is sometimes useless and usually just good for predictably handing out its encounter tag.

- There's no good place for it. It may be enough to keep non-criminals out of HQ, but then again a Pop-up Window usually does that too. In front of R&D it's a medium dig waiting to happen, although to be a fair a well-chosen second piece of ice helps a lot. Alone in front of a melange mining corp it presents a nice a nice Catch-22 for the runner, but I don't feel this 2-card combo is enough to move away from the airtight transaction and agenda-based economy that only Weyland gets to field.

- It competes with a large pool of good in-faction or neutral sentries for deck space.

- SEA Source is strictly better at threatening the Scorched Earth kill. Both cards threaten the out-of-turn tag if you're ahead on money. Data Raven has the small advantage of not costing a click on your Scorched Earth turn, but SEA Source can't be countered by a sentry breaker and protects all of your servers, not just the one on which a Data Raven is installed.

I certainly wouldn't argue that Data Raven is bad, and I'm sure you can find lots of successful Weyland decks which include it. But looking at the New York regionals winning decklist (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/993162/new-york-regionals-re...) and playing a similar deck myself made me realize that there may be much better options.

In any case, I wanted to see what the community thought and hopefully taunt some fellow netrunners into discussing a single card in the context of a single deck archetype, since I find that entire decklists tend to overwhelm me and leave a bit too much to discuss in terms of strategy.


I've long since stopped running Data Raven in tag n bag. Data Raven is good in tag overload for the eventuality of growing tags from tags (a poor runner with more than a few tags is going to compound them running through the Raven to score points, a runner with no tags is NOT going to tag themselves against a Raven), but for landing single tags (which is what you need to tag n bag), nah. It's easily worked around.
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
Personally, Data Raven no longer scares me. My deck tends to run about 12-14 link and most trace heavy ICE, I can simply walk through now.


ID with +1 Link
Toolbox +2 Link
3 Access To Globalsec +3
1 Helpful AI +1
3 Rabbit Hole +3
3 Dyson Memchip +3

What am I missing to get you to +14?

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Wesley Kinslow
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Saracenus wrote:
xpiredsodapop wrote:
Personally, Data Raven no longer scares me. My deck tends to run about 12-14 link and most trace heavy ICE, I can simply walk through now.


ID with +1 Link
Toolbox +2 Link
3 Access To Globalsec +3
1 Helpful AI +1
3 Rabbit Hole +3
3 Dyson Memchip +3

What am I missing to get you to +14?



Compromised Employee? That's pseudo-link...
 
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Alejandro G.
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wedgeex wrote:
Saracenus wrote:
xpiredsodapop wrote:
Personally, Data Raven no longer scares me. My deck tends to run about 12-14 link and most trace heavy ICE, I can simply walk through now.


ID with +1 Link
Toolbox +2 Link
3 Access To Globalsec +3
1 Helpful AI +1
3 Rabbit Hole +3
3 Dyson Memchip +3

What am I missing to get you to +14?



Compromised Employee? That's pseudo-link...


Winner, Winner Chicken Dinner. Yes, it's not "Link" but running 3 gives 3 credits towards a trace. I consider it link strength.

(So you could run 16 "link" with the current card pool.)
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Ben Hawks
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I don't run Data Raven to play Scorched Earth; I play Scorched Earth to play Data Raven. Data Raven is the single most efficient Ice if the runner cares about tags. It's true there are counters to it, and if the runner correctly chooses not to care about tags, it's actually worthless, but it is just so powerful when it's good that it's worth it.

Also, I don't think you have to choose between Data Raven and SEA Source. SEA Source is your kill shot in Tag 'n Bag. Data Raven is just a powerful ETR Ice.
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mathew rynich
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I usually put in some in my Weyland Decks (Maybe not 3). Resource trashing is still a big thing in the game. Plascrete is all well and good, but if they haven't drawn it yet it won't protect them (and its expensive to install 2x for maybe no benefit). Data Raven just gives me a nice passive way to threaten SE (even if I don't actually have SE in the deck). That one free tag can be such a boon to the corp if the runner actually needs to clear it all the time.
 
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Matt - Conduit23
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I think it's good in Tag N Bag, just on remotes. Like you say, it's just an ETR on centrals early game, and later they can work around it. But I really like it on a remote because it will probably be an ETR early and maybe let you sneak through an agenda, and late game it adds another layer of the "can I get in that remote and end my turn without a tag" math.
 
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Kevin
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banjothulu wrote:
I don't run Data Raven to play Scorched Earth; I play Scorched Earth to play Data Raven. Data Raven is the single most efficient Ice if the runner cares about tags. It's true there are counters to it, and if the runner correctly chooses not to care about tags, it's actually worthless, but it is just so powerful when it's good that it's worth it.

Also, I don't think you have to choose between Data Raven and SEA Source. SEA Source is your kill shot in Tag 'n Bag. Data Raven is just a powerful ETR Ice.


I think "single most efficient [...] if" summarizes both why you like it and why I don't. Data Raven is tempting to play because it can be very economical, but this is basically a greedy strategy that backfires if the runner anticipates it. Being forced to rez one or two Data Ravens only to then have the runner drop a plascrete and float tags is a *huge* setback for the corp. Compare that to Caduceus being countered by link. Caduceus probably swung 3 credits your way when rezzed, costs more to counter with common sources of link (Dyson/Rabbit hole), and still has the ETR trace if you want to mess with a more threatening run like a Maker's Eye. Not only that, but the link doesn't shutdown the rest of your Tag 'n Bag apparatus like plascrete does.

Yes, you can run Data Raven and SEA Source, but SEA source is always good. At worst it forces your opponent to drop plascretes at the cost of a few useless draws for you, while Data Raven needs to be played and paid for in order to force the runner to spend time and money countering it.

I really do think Data Raven is greedy. Ditch it and you can play a less ambitious Weyland deck that doesn't win as easily against some runners but has one less weak spot.
 
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Ben Finkel
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For those worried about Plascrete, I've found that Dedicated Response Team is incredibly efficient at taking those out and making "screw the tags" players have to slow down drastically. It also makes going through those Data Ravens do a surprise 2 meat damage the first time a Runner passes one while you have DRT on the table.
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Brian H
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xpiredsodapop wrote:
Personally, Data Raven no longer scares me. My deck tends to run about 12-14 link and most trace heavy ICE, I can simply walk through now.


What kind of decks are you running against where you need 12-14 link? surprise

I can see needing like, 6 at the most.
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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MavericK96 wrote:
xpiredsodapop wrote:
Personally, Data Raven no longer scares me. My deck tends to run about 12-14 link and most trace heavy ICE, I can simply walk through now.


What kind of decks are you running against where you need 12-14 link? surprise

I can see needing like, 6 at the most.


I believe he was joking... I turned it into an exercise to figure out how much link is possible with the current card pool...

He is cheating with the "soft link" provided by Compromised Employees...
 
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Alejandro G.
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Trace Heavy Corps, works like a charm. That is until they pull out Net Police. laugh
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Lou Lessing
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Absolutely. Data Raven isn't very good in Tag 'n Bag.

It's very efficient ice if you have a giant threat like Scorched Earth to back it up (if it's must-break, it's got very good numbers), but people treat it like it's a way to get tags, and it's not. You can never get a tag with it that the runner isn't prepared for, so it doesn't contribute to your combo. You will never successfully trace with it.

If you've got influence to spend on ice, it's solid, although it has to compete with the likes of Rototurret, Tollbooth, and Neural Katana. But your in-faction ice is very good, you're often better splashing for more tricks. I'm a big fan of ChiLo City Grid.
 
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Mike Oehler
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I was thinking that DRT and Data Raven act as a soft counter to plascrete. If they try to ignore tags, DRT will chip away at the plascrete so they both need to be more careful of Scorched even after they bunkered up, and probably need to make another run to kill off your asset as well. One of the normal things about asset light weyland is while the runner can't blow up your money, you also have fewer targets to get him to run and spend and his money. There have been some games where I could just amass credits because BWBI had advanced its central ICE to the point where it was extremely expensive to run, but I could afford to run against basically anything they threw into a remote because they didn't have enough targets to wear me out.
 
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Dirk Tebben
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banjothulu wrote:
I don't run Data Raven to play Scorched Earth; I play Scorched Earth to play Data Raven. Data Raven is the single most efficient Ice if the runner cares about tags. It's true there are counters to it, and if the runner correctly chooses not to care about tags, it's actually worthless, but it is just so powerful when it's good that it's worth it.

Also, I don't think you have to choose between Data Raven and SEA Source. SEA Source is your kill shot in Tag 'n Bag. Data Raven is just a powerful ETR Ice.


(Emphasis added!)

Data Raven is arguably the single best piece of ice in the game. Even T&B decks need to make their centrals expensive, and Data Raven does that. Ignoring tags completely against a T&B will get the runner killed if the corp is halfway competent.

Edit: NACH is a much bigger counter to Data Raven than link is, but fortunately NACH has its own drawbacks.
 
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CD Harris
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stillnotking wrote:
Data Raven is arguably the single best piece of ice in the game. Even T&B decks need to make their centrals expensive, and Data Raven does that. Ignoring tags completely against a T&B will get the runner killed if the corp is halfway competent.


A second click DR+False Lead won me a tourney game in the Dayton Regional by allowing me to use all three of my clicks to SE over the top of a Plascrete. With me on match point, the Runner had to take the tag to try to win. He didn't; I did.

I got 3 flatlines out of 5 matches that day and DR was great in all 5. Early- to mid-game it is effectively ETR ICE for most Runners. I have only very rarely gotten a token on it, but it never failed to more than pull its weight.

So, yeah, it's not essential but it has a place. You just have to put it on the right server.
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Lluluien
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No one except a tag-me Runner will run a Data Raven on click 4.

However, there are lots of instances where a Runner will run it on click 3.

That's an important enough point that I built a deck around it that won 25+ straight games before I posted the decklist.

Why that's important is left as an exercise to the reader, since I've already said it lots of times in the Never Advance thread
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Chris Hinkes
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I think the best use is putting one on HQ, particularly against Criminal. Many times have I rezzed it to stop an Account Siphon dead in its tracks.

I also think it becomes even stronger with a scored False Lead.
 
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Ben Hawks
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Data Raven is pretty sick as the outermost Ice on any server. It's great when it's on top of ETR Ice. I've used it to good effect on R&D, HQ, and my Remote. If you can punish tags well enough, you're going to get full effect out of it no matter where you put it.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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brisingre wrote:
Absolutely. Data Raven isn't very good in Tag 'n Bag.

It's very efficient ice if you have a giant threat like Scorched Earth to back it up


Wait, what? What Tag 'n Bag decks are you playing that don't run Scorched Earth?
 
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etherial wrote:
brisingre wrote:
Absolutely. Data Raven isn't very good in Tag 'n Bag.

It's very efficient ice if you have a giant threat like Scorched Earth to back it up


Wait, what? What Tag 'n Bag decks are you playing that don't run Scorched Earth?


Did you read the rest of his post? I think his logic is consistent, even if I happen to disagree with it.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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banjothulu wrote:
etherial wrote:
brisingre wrote:
Absolutely. Data Raven isn't very good in Tag 'n Bag.

It's very efficient ice if you have a giant threat like Scorched Earth to back it up


Wait, what? What Tag 'n Bag decks are you playing that don't run Scorched Earth?


Did you read the rest of his post? I think his logic is consistent, even if I happen to disagree with it.


I agree with a lot of what both brisingre and the OP said (except about Caduceus), but I found the section I highlighted a tad strange.
 
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Ben Hawks
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etherial wrote:
banjothulu wrote:
etherial wrote:
brisingre wrote:
Absolutely. Data Raven isn't very good in Tag 'n Bag.

It's very efficient ice if you have a giant threat like Scorched Earth to back it up


Wait, what? What Tag 'n Bag decks are you playing that don't run Scorched Earth?


Did you read the rest of his post? I think his logic is consistent, even if I happen to disagree with it.


I agree with a lot of what both brisingre and the OP said (except about Caduceus), but I found the section I highlighted a tad strange.


He was saying it was an efficient Ice, but Weyland already has enough efficient Ice that you don't need Data Raven.

I think Data Raven is powerful enough to play anyway. It's basically the best mid-cost Ice for the deck.
 
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