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Doug Poskitt
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Here's a question that I am not sure about ...

In a seaborne invasion, ground units can attack an undefended beach hex, place a BH counter etc etc.

Can:

a) GS be flown by airwings in support of such an attack?
b) Shore Bombardment be provided in support of such an attack?

I may need glasses, but at this time of the evening I cannot locate any rule that forbids either a or b.

Comments, gentlemen?
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Patrick Bauer
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The question would be, "Why?". As the beach is undefended the attack is automatically successful. Ground support is useless. And there's no rule that says you can not designate more fleets to the "invasion" mission than you need. So essentially any Shore Bombardment you're designating is just extra invasion factors anyway.

Edit: I guess if you're reading 29.434 to mean that fleets in ports other than the carrying fleets can not be designated as "Invasion" then there's a reason to SB for fleet safety. I just read 29.434 to say that the fleets carrying the invaders have to be in the invader's port, the other ships are carrying no units.
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Doug Poskitt
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The situation might arise where a fleet is based in a port which doesn't have a ground unit. Thus it cannot perform a seaborne invasion mission.

If it can perform a Shore Bombardment mission in the case of a landing re: an undefended beach hex, then (after it sails so as to join the invasion fleet) it may possibly increase the odds in any subsequent naval combat; and there would be no need to worry about it failing it's counter-interception roll if it were held back instead.
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Patrick Bauer
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I don't think it matters whether the extra fleets are on an "invasion" mission but not carrying units, or on a "shore bombardment" mission blasting the empty beach. A player may designate these extra fleets and sail his mission so that they are the first leg and arrive with the true invaders at their port en route to the beach.

Either way, as you said there is no rule to prevent either choice.
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chris walsh
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Agree with your last Patrick.
 
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Steve Carter
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cccw wrote:
Agree with your last Patrick.

Hmmm... as usual with this game, things are not always as easy as they seem when you look at the "Rules as Written."

Since Rule 29.434 refers to the "invading units" which need to "start their turn in supply" I have always assumed that this relates to the ground units that are embarking on the fleets in port.

However, there are only three reasons why a fleet unit can move during the combat phase: shore bombardment, sea transport, and seaborne invasions.

Shore bombardment is not valid in this case, since Rule 29.411 explicitly states that enemy ground units are in the hex being assaulted.

Sea transport does not apply since no units are being transported by the fleets in question.

That leaves Seaborne invasions. As I stated above, I find nothing explicitly in the rules that forbids additional fleets joining the invasion fleet. In fact that is the way I have always played the game. Further evidence for this (in my opinion) is found in the example described in Rule 29.53 which is found in the section detailing the naval interception process. This example describes that fleets may combine to form one mission even though they begin the mission in separate ports.

This of course is a long winded way of agreeing with Patrick.
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Patrick Bauer
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tallracer333 wrote:
cccw wrote:
Agree with your last Patrick.

Hmmm... as usual with this game, things are not always as easy as they seem when you look at the "Rules as Written."

Since Rule 29.434 refers to the "invading units" which need to "start their turn in supply" I have always assumed that this relates to the ground units that are embarking on the fleets in port.

However, there are only three reasons why a fleet unit can move during the combat phase: shore bombardment, sea transport, and seaborne invasions.

Shore bombardment is not valid in this case, since Rule 29.411 explicitly states that enemy ground units are in the hex being assaulted.

Sea transport does not apply since no units are being transported by the fleets in question.

That leaves Seaborne invasions. As I stated above, I find nothing explicitly in the rules that forbids additional fleets joining the invasion fleet. In fact that is the way I have always played the game. Further evidence for this (in my opinion) is found in the example described in Rule 29.53 which is found in the section detailing the naval interception process. This example describes that fleets may combine to form one mission even though they begin the mission in separate ports.

This of course is a long winded way of agreeing with Patrick. :)


Essentially this was the basis for my questioning why one would want to declare Shore Bombardment against an empty hex. The fleets actually carrying the invaders must start the combat phase with them but the rule does not say the fleets must be carrying something. (29.433 & 29.434). The key phrase: "The attacking units may receive Shore Bombardment factors from any excess naval factors not engaged in carrying ground units; they may also receive Ground Support from any air units in range.", leads one to theorize that Invasion/Shore Bombardment is essentially a joint mission just dealt with in two parts in the rules. A fleet in one port engages in an invasion mission carrying units and its excess factors as Shore Bombardment, while a fleet in another port engages in an invasion mission against the same hex carrying no units which by definition means all of its factors are excess and eligible to be Shore Bombardment.

This a long winded version of me saying, "I don't know whether to call it Shore Bombardment or Invasion, but I'm pretty sure you can do it."



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chris walsh
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"Essentially this was the basis for my questioning why one would want to declare Shore Bombardment against an empty hex. The fleets actually carrying the invaders must start the combat phase with them but the rule does not say the fleets must be carrying something. (29.433 & 29.434). The key phrase: "The attacking units may receive Shore Bombardment factors from any excess naval factors not engaged in carrying ground units; they may also receive Ground Support from any air units in range.", leads one to theorize that Invasion/Shore Bombardment is essentially a joint mission just dealt with in two parts in the rules. A fleet in one port engages in an invasion mission carrying units and its excess factors as Shore Bombardment, while a fleet in another port engages in an invasion mission against the same hex carrying no units which by definition means all of its factors are excess and eligible to be Shore Bombardment."

Why not just treat the last fleet as "sea bombardment" and be done with it? Or do you see it all as coming under a generic "sea invasion" mission?
Works both ways.

Combine all ships (from wherever) then divide by three and worry about it only after the dice roll is basically our incredibly clumsy manner of operating.
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Doug Poskitt
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Thanks for all the comments guys.

I just wanted to be able to make sure I could do what it was I intended to do. FWIW, the victim of this intended naval manoeuver is indeed Patrick, though I will be crossing my fingers as he has commanded a very "nuisance laden" Kriegsmarine in the game to date.
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chris walsh
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Seems a pretty cool example of 'both player buy in' to rule difficulties - very admirable! Hope the outcome is propitious and please inform us of the carnage going forward!
 
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Patrick Bauer
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Well two thirds of the German fleet is wandering aimlessly about the Irish Sea looking for the enemy while the other third is about to get the snot knocked out of it.
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chris walsh
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*Admiralty to Bismarck ... Admiralty to Bismarck ... Come in Bismarck ... Come i ... ... *
 
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Doug Poskitt
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SewerStarFish wrote:
Well two thirds of the German fleet is wandering aimlessly about the Irish Sea looking for the enemy while the other third is about to get the snot knocked out of it.


Anglo-American Naval HQ Update

The navigation-challenged fleet that set sail from Kiel has returned to port without so much as a sniff of the enemy.

Meanwhile, the lesser portion of the German fleet has run head on into an Anglo-American combat task force - "Task Force Sparkle" - off Plymouth sound. Enjoying odds of 5:1, TF Sparkle is set to clean the chronometers of Admiral Donutz's vessels as the opening salvo of "Operation Uranus", the curtain-raiser to the Spring 1945 turn.

Always a good idea to start the New Year with a splendid display of fireworks
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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I also agree with apparent consensus, that one way or another the 'excess' fleets can go along on the seaborne invasion mission to provide additional strength against potential naval interception.

To parse the rules, we have:

Quote:
29.411 Attacker moves his fleets to the water portion of a coastal hex containing enemy ground units which are to be attacked by his own ground units in a seaborne invasion. For each three naval factors, one factor is added to the strength of attacker‘s ground units when determining odds of the ground combat.



Reading that literally, it does seem to say that fleets cannot be on a shore bombardment mission unless the target hex actually contains enemy units. However, there is the following:

Quote:
29.413 Attacker may not use Shore Bombardment in support of an Exploitation attack or in any attack against a hex not under attack by seaborne invasion. EXCEPTION: Shore Bombardment may be used in support of non-exploiting, attacking ground units against any coastal fortress or one hex island.


Quote:
29.433 For Invasions, three naval factors are needed to carry one ground factor. Air may not be carried. Any number of units may be carried, up to the capacity of the invading fleets, but only two units may attack the target hex (plus any airborne units which drop). The attacking units may receive Shore Bombardment factors from any excess naval factors not engaged in carrying ground units; they may also receive Ground Support from any air units in range.


In both of those two instances, no reference is made to defending enemy units being present, only support of attacking friendly units. I do not believe that the intention of rule 29.411 was to prohibit shore bombarding naval factors in the case of a seaborne invasion against a vacant enemy controlled hex. Rather, it was probably written based on the implicit assumption that that would be the only situation in which the attack would want to include shore bombardment. Again, it is a bit moot since the additional factors can, I believe, based on the RaW be included in the seaborne invasion mission. Of course additional factors won't matter in an attack on a vacant hex.
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