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Subject: Zimmerman Trial rss

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Josh
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It's really hard to make 'stand your ground' stick if the jury believes that Zimmerman stalked this kid. The 'Star witness' (I don't like that term) talked about TM having 'lost' Zimmerman at one point then Zimmerman tailing him again. I'm pretty sure you can't declare stand your ground if your ground is up someone else's ass.

 
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Paul Sauberer
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I don't believe that the Stand Your Ground law is at issue here. I believe that Zimmerman's defense rests on a claim of self defense. That is very different.
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Josh
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That could be the case, it's been a while since this was all quasi-relevant. I know they made a thing of it back at the beginning, but who knows what the actual legal tactic will be.

The problem with self defense is the idea of responding in kind. If you're getting your ass beat by a single dude, shooting is still (in many states) not a viable defense. It isn't murder 2, probably manslaughter.
 
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Daniel
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Obviously don't know what the jury will think about, but I don't see enough evidence to get a conviction. The murder charge was made more out of political considerations than concrete evidence. Some of the witness evidence is either equivocal or more helps the defense. Getting out of your car and following someone isn't a crime. The prosecution has to prove murderous intent or have witness evidence that prove he intended to provoke an altercation. If the sequence of events happened as Zimmerman defense describes, he did nothing wrong though unwise as hindsight shows.
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Daniel
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"responding in kind" is not the legal standard. It's reasonably feeling that your life is in immediate danger. If it's as described, and the photographs seem to back up, and what the neighbor described as the person in the darker sweatshirt straddling the other individual and pounding their face and smashing head into concrete, any State would consider that a life and death situation for self-defense. The problem is no one saw the moment of shooting.
 
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Zimmerman appears to believe that he did nothing wrong. I question his judgement.

All will be clear when Martin takes the stand.

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49xjohn wrote:

Zimmerman appears to believe that he did nothing wrong. I question his judgement.

All will be clear when Martin takes the stand.

If he does, I predict acquittal.
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David desJardins
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dandechino wrote:
Getting out of your car and following someone isn't a crime.
But it certainly shows bad character. The question is, do the known facts about Zimmerman allow one to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he's not telling the truth about what happened? The facts that we do know make it seem likely that he's not telling the truth. But beyond a reasonable doubt? That's hard.
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Luke Wunderlin
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DaviddesJ wrote:
dandechino wrote:
Getting out of your car and following someone isn't a crime.
But it certainly shows bad character. The question is, do the known facts about Zimmerman allow one to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he's not telling the truth about what happened? The facts that we do know make it seem likely that he's not telling the truth. But beyond a reasonable doubt? That's hard.
Bad character like all the issues TM was having in school, altercations, and thefts that weren't admitted to evidence?

I think a large section of the population heard the initial skewed media presentation (little kid skipping along with skittles in hand, gunned down in a hail of bullets based on race) and haven't deviated from that stance after more evidence has come to light (bloodied GZ, witnesses to seeing TM atop GZ and beating him, etc).

I think it's going to be a circus no matter what the outcome.

meeple
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zimmerman has creepy beady little pig eyes and while those arent illegal either....they really fucking creep me out
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Boaty McBoatface
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The irony being that as Zimmerman now appears to have been following Martin if Martin had shot Zimmernamn it would have been a stand your ground case.

It was not murder as I don't think Zimmerman wanted to kill, it was manslaughter. As such I think Zimmmerman will get off.
 
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Daniel Edwards
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Seems to me from vaguely reading internet news stories that it was always going to be tough to get him on either murder or manslaughter without direct witnesses to the actual altercation. Being a dick and following the kid around don't necessarily preclude self-defense. It seems a neccessary part of the chain to show murder which isn't going to manage to get there.

The much more relvant factors are what happened at the point that the conflict turned from the kind of thing that happens a thousand times a day to deadly (either way). Theres just too much doubt that can be played with by the defence assuming physical evidence supports that Zimmerman was injured.
 
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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There is more than enough evidence to show reasonable doubt. Based on what I've heard so far, there is no way the prosecution can show, without a doubt, that Zimmerman initiated a murderous rage assault against Martin.

The prosecution is relying on a girlfriend who has already been caught changing her story. The defense is relying on the testimony of police officers who already confirmed that his back was wet from grass and medical professionals who confirmed that he had lacerations on the back of his head. While I don't think they have anything iron clad that proves his innocence, I think they can take what they have and weave a pretty significant thread of doubt.
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ejmowrer wrote:
There is more than enough evidence to show reasonable doubt. Based on what I've heard so far, there is no way the prosecution can show, without a doubt, that Zimmerman initiated a murderous rage assault against Martin.


didnt he follow and confront him?


ever done that to a fluffy bunny?
 
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My take on this is that he showed at least some intent by carrying the gun in the first place. One of the first things they tell you when participating in Neighborhood Watch is "No weapons." Zimmerman opted to carry a concealed firearm anyway.
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J
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He also never told Martin that he was Neighborhood Watch nor asked what Martin was doing there, even though he was following him. Perhaps Martin saw the gun, felt his life threatened and decided to "stand his own ground".
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Chad
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jmilum wrote:
He also never told Martin that he was Neighborhood Watch nor asked what Martin was doing there, even though he was following him. Perhaps Martin saw the gun, felt his life threatened and decided to "stand his own ground".
which would have more credibility if he did not have Zimmerman on his back with Z screaming "help me" at the at the top of his lungs and making punching motions (witness did not see if the actual punches connected).

there is no doubt that Zimmerman (and Martin) both put themselves into bad situations here.
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J
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Maybe the kid was really naive and believed he could win against a gun. It takes a while to beat someone unconscious, not very long to shoot someone.

Why is it ok to pull the trigger and kill in self defense, but not ok to beat someone unconscious in self defense?
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Daniel Edwards
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As above I think people are giving way too much significance to Zimmerman following Martin around when the guts of the issue is likely Zimmerman's mental state at the time he fired his gun.

Assume the evidence shows thats what happened. Zimmerman intended to literally harrass Martin off the estate using his gun as a threat necessary.

They confront each other.

Martin puts Zimmerman on his back.

At this point it could still easily go either way.

Martin says something insulting but is otherwise just standing there presenting no imminent danger. Zimmerman draws and fires. Quite probably guilty the more so if Martin is trying to disengage.

Martin keeps coming forward with attendant threat to kill or mess Zimmerman up. Zimmerman draws and fires. Quite probably not-guilty.

The lack of evidence as to whether it was scenario A or B is where reasonable doubt (normally) lives. The one thing I'm not au feit on is what the ballistics report says. If Zimmerman's story about where he was when he fired is contradicted by the report the jury might find that evidence of a lie but even that might not be enough.

 
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I've not seen the trial. The stuff I've seen on-line does make me think he went looking for the kid and killed him so that self-defense as a defense at trial makes no sense. Having lives in Florida though, I expect he'll get off. I strongly doubt he should in an ideal world.
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R. Frazier
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jmilum wrote:
Maybe the kid was really naive and believed he could win against a gun. It takes a while to beat someone unconscious, not very long to shoot someone.

Why is it ok to pull the trigger and kill in self defense, but not ok to beat someone unconscious in self defense?
I think what we're seeing is in a situation where both people are in fear for their lives, in Florida the guy with the gun wins and also (maybe) doesn't do jail time.
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Steve Vondra
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Zimmerman stalked the kid, while armed (against all police instructions for any neighborhood watch program), against repeated, specific police instructions (he was told to go wait by the entrance for the police, and also told not to get out of his car). This is in no way self defense, it is hunting.
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My total time spent on this since the trial started was to watch a few minutes of this T Martin's ex-girlfriend on the stand. I learned nothing, which is fine because I don't care who shot who or why they shot them. But she did make me curious about what exactly is going on in Racist-Land...

How is it that a Mexican guy with a Jewish last name is a "cracker"?
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J
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DWTripp wrote:
How is it that a Mexican guy
Mexican? Just because they say he is Hispanic you immediately assume Mexican? Lame.
 
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Rex Stites
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slatersteven wrote:
The irony being that as Zimmerman now appears to have been following Martin if Martin had shot Zimmernamn it would have been a stand your ground case.
Not sure how that would make it stand your ground. What are typically referred to stand your ground statutes simply eliminate the requirement that person seek to retreat from the altercation, if it is safe to do so. [IIRC, Florida's stand your ground law also places some procedural hurdles in the prosecutions way for prosecuting where there is a claim of self-defense, but Zimmerman basically waived those procedural issues]

A person is generally only justified using deadly force in self defense where there is a reasonable belief of a fear of death or serious bodily harm. Merely following someone would not allow the person being followed to shoot the follower, without much more.
 
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