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Subject: What is the difficulty of various Masterminds and Schemes? rss

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I'm trying to figure out the difficulty of different Masterminds and Schemes. This probably changes significantly based on the heroes selected and the number of players, but the poll would be too bulky that way so just try to given an "average" score.

I'm sure that some scheme/mastermind combinations are significantly stronger or weaker, again just try to give an "average" score.

Poll
How difficult are the various schemes and masterminds? Rating from 1 (easy) to 10 (hard).
  Don't know 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Apocalypse
Dr. Doom
Kingpin
Loki
Magneto
Mephisto
Mr. Sinister
Red Skull
Stryfe
Capture Baby Hope
Detonate the Helicarrier
Massive Earthquake Generator
Midtown Bank Robbery
Negative Zone Prison Breakout
Organized Crime Wave
Portals to the Dark Dimension
Replace Earth's Leaders with Killbots
Save Humanity
Secret Invasion of the Skrull Shapeshifters
Steal the Weaponized Plutonium
Super Hero Civil War
The Legacy Virus
Transform Citizens into Demons
Unlease the Power of the Cosmic Cube
X-Cutioner's Song
      32 answers
Poll created by slacks
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Jacovis
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I think your first comment is pretty much right on. The combination of the Scheme, the Mastermind, and the heroes, not to mention the Villains make this poll pretty much useless incapable of providing data that I would find useful. The only two I feel comfortable about marking for sure is that Apocalypse is at the top end of hard, and Red Skull is at the bottom end of easy.

For example, I played a game the other day against the Enemies of Asgard, with Dr. Doom, and I had neither many TECH heroes, nor any RANGED heroes. That meant that every time a Master Strike went off I was getting dinged, and every time a Frost giant came up we were gaining wounds, and there were other situations like that that in that game that made it a lot more difficult.

Edit: to clear up a misunderstanding of my choice in terminology. No anger or "bad" feelings intended with my original post. It was a direct response to the suggested purpose of the poll.
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Jacovis
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Who is the smart ass who gave Apocalypse a 5 on the difficulty scale?
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I disagree that the poll is pretty much useless, obviously I wouldn't have posted it if I thought that were the case. There are a lot of moving parts that can create variation, but I think some of those parts are more significant than others and/or less coupled than it seems.

You agree that Red Skull and Apocalypse are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum, so to some degree you also agree that the poll is not entirely useless. I think there are more examples than these, however.

I think that Unleash the Power of the Cosmic Cube is also clearly on the low end of the spectrum since you literally cannot lose to the Scheme unless all 8 scheme twists are revealed and the first 4 schemes do nothing. Almost all schemes will force a loss if all their scheme twists go off, and the twists generally do something bad as well.
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Jacovis
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I should clarify. The poll is useless as an exercise in providing realistic, universal difficulty data. The input is going to be opinions mixed with individual experiences, and on top of that it is missing (and is really incapable of being long enough to do so) the specifics it would need to be more accurate for that.

It is interesting to see peoples' opinions, for sure, but the beauty of Legendary is that it has those random elements that make playing the game unpredictable, fun, and replayable. These numbers will always be arbitrary, as we are already seeing.

I apologize for my literal use of the word useless, in response to your intended purpose. It was not intended to encompass the entire range of possibilities for the poll. As I said, I do think it is interesting.

Cheers!

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Aaron Bohm
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I agree that it's a matter of opinion but there is probably a more analytic way to approach it. At least as far as the villains are concerned.

First, I don't think it depends on combinations, since it's pretty easy to say "which villain is hardest given the random scenarios." After all, we're not trying to determine (in this thread) which is the hardest combo.

Second, I think it can be determined independently of the heroes. You mentioned Doom which has a tech symbol requirement or else you put 2 cards on the top of your deck. So, this is a symbol requirement with a bad thing. We can judge that pretty easily... how easy is it, among all heroes, to get a tech symbol and how bad is the bad stuff?

Otherwise categorically we can add it up:
Does the villain have an alternate lose condition? y/n
How much health does the villain have?
Is there a way to avoid the masterstrike?
If so, how easy is it?
How bad is the "bad stuff" on the masterstrike?
Other/tilt (for example, Bride on Kingpin makes him easier)

Schemes will be a LOT harder to judge and here is where opinion does actually matter. Over 1,000 games, which Schemes tend to lose you the game more? Which ones feel rough or random or bleak and unwinnable?

I'm not sure there is any other better way to approach the topic of Scheme difficulty aside from polling.
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Darth Ed
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I think Jacovis point is simply that the difficulty of a match is the combination of mastermind, villains, schemes, and heroes, and he illustrated that point very well with his example.

Anyway, the poll is fun, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the responses evolve over time. cool
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Dicky P
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A Legendary equivalent to this would be neat.

http://x.gray.org/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-difficulty-sco...
 
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Aaron Bohm
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Boom04 wrote:
A Legendary equivalent to this would be neat.

http://x.gray.org/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-difficulty-sco...


This would require a ridiculous amount of data from a multitude of users

and

We should totally do this
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Darth Ed
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Never Knows Best wrote:
Boom04 wrote:
A Legendary equivalent to this would be neat.

http://x.gray.org/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-difficulty-sco...


This would require a ridiculous amount of data from a multitude of users

and

We should totally do this

Whoa! That's cool! Maybe we could use the Legendary Online League results for this type of analysis...
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Dicky P
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DarthEd wrote:
Never Knows Best wrote:
Boom04 wrote:
A Legendary equivalent to this would be neat.

http://x.gray.org/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-difficulty-sco...


This would require a ridiculous amount of data from a multitude of users

and

We should totally do this

Whoa! That's cool! Maybe we could use the Legendary Online League results for this type of analysis...


Probably need a load more than that, but it would have to start somewhere.
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Aaron Bohm
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The biggest disadvantage of that being that we are winning most of our games and that all of them are solo.

IE the thesis being that it's much easier to win a solo game and therefore we're not going to get too many lose results.

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Jacovis
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More or less what I was trying to say. In order to provide better data, the poll needs to be more specific. General statements of difficulty for the Masterminds and the Schemes by themselves are still too broad, in my opinion. Also, there are the details like whether a player is using optional rules to increase or decrease mastermind and scheme difficulties, etc. Which this game thankfully provides in the rules themselves.

For example: The Legacy Virus is pretty obnoxious, especially with two or one players. Add in a MM that causes wound gains (Loki for example) an it becomes more so. Add in a villain deck with a lot of wound gains and ambush/fight effects that cause more wound gains. Let's say Brotherhood and Enemies of Asgard. Henchmen = Doombot Legion. Random heroes include let's say Black Widow (5 tech cards, 0 Strength cards), Gambit (no Strength or Tech cards), Storm (no Tech or Strength cards), Thor (5 Strength cards, 0 Tech cards), and X-Men Wolverine (no Tech or Strength cards).

You need to figure out probabilities for drawing either of the 2 strength and/or tech cards to the Hero deck, plus the ability to purchase them. Then you have the Frost Giants, who trigger off ranged. Then you have to calculate those probabilities as well based on the heroes. Gambit, Storm, and Thor all have at least 1 ranged card, so these are probably less of a concern than the other wound threats. Further, we have three X-Men heroes in the Hero deck, so the possibility of handling the Brotherhood heroes is much higher in theory.

The combination of the Scheme, the MM, the Villains, and the Heroes, all together, really are necessary for accurate data. If in the same scenario we had The Legacy Virus, Dr. Doom, Forge, Punisher, Storm, Wolverine (X-Men), and Cyclops, my game would be totally different, and the difficulty of the Virus becomes considerably less.

These two scenarios are just statistical probabilities, though. Thanks to the random card draw, even good odds like these can turn out badly, and for some people several times in a row, as well as going very well. Either of these situations repeatedly would skew opinions and data.

So, I think considering the Schemes broadly without the rest of the cards is even more inaccurate.

Let me end this with this point: I don't care about specific mathematical probabilities. I play games for fun, and quite frankly figuring out specific statistics like that only make things less fun for me. All I care about is playing the game and having fun, and Legendary does that for me, even when I "win" easily, I have a great time.
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Jacovis
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Never Knows Best wrote:
Boom04 wrote:
A Legendary equivalent to this would be neat.

http://x.gray.org/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-difficulty-sco...


This would require a ridiculous amount of data from a multitude of users

and

We should totally do this


Do you have hosting space somewhere? I'd be glad to contribute all of the plays I have recorded. I personally track all of the data for my games (when I remember to record it. I've been having far too much fun just playing to do this for every game) and would be glad to contribute to it regularly.

I think something we could do too is choose a setup and bonuses (including heroes, villains, henchmen, etc.) Randomly each week and issue the challenge to the forums and have people post their results, including number of players, Points, etc. for each game.

We could calculate points for solo games as normal, and for multiplayer games by adding all the points of all players and dividing by the number of players...You could record any number of plays of that specific scenario and record each instance as one post in the thread. We could then compile the data each week.

I'm actually thinking of doing this now.. Would anyone be interested?

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Aaron Bohm
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Jacovis wrote:
Never Knows Best wrote:
Boom04 wrote:
A Legendary equivalent to this would be neat.

http://x.gray.org/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-difficulty-sco...


This would require a ridiculous amount of data from a multitude of users

and

We should totally do this


Do you have hosting space somewhere? I'd be glad to contribute all of the plays I have recorded.


I figure once a system is set up it wouldn't be too hard to throw the whole thing on Google Docs.

I have some time off this week so let me work out a few ideas.
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John Hannam
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Bump

Keep voting!
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Having finally played through all the LDC Schemes, for me four from the total of 16 stand out as tough (from a 2-player/deck POV):

Super Hero Civil War (has been discussed in another thread)
Legacy Virus (Loki is very bad, Mephisto probably not far off)
Organized Crime Wave (gah, want Ghost Rider here to KO those Maggia Goons)
Transform Citizens Into Demons (we cleared the first Twist's Demon Villains, but before we could get back at them, there were 10+ and hit 15+ at times, coupled with an entire city of Jean Grey yuk , not much we could do against 18+ Attack Jeans...)

So far I'd rate the LDC Mastermind in order from toughest to easiest:

Apocalypse (shocker, right?)
Stryfe
Kingpin
Mephisto
Mr. Sinister

Weirdly, despite having one higher raw Attack then Stryfe (8 vs 7), Mr. Sinister has been a real puppy. They also have a fairly similar Master Strike effect that boosts them, but whereas I've lost against Stryfe and won one (with 1 card left in the villain deck), Sinister hasn't really put up a challenge. Part of it is that while Stryfe gets boosted and stays boosted (up to 12 Attack once all 5 Master Strikes come out), Sinister doesn't go up to quite as high since each time you defeat him, he goes down to 8, though captures one or two Bystanders.
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Adelin Dumitru
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The good old days!
 
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