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Subject: How Would You Back Princes of the Dragon Throne? rss

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Fred MacKenzie
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I have no idea of the financial feasibility of the suggestion made by
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in his forum post http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/995794/a-dumb-idea-for-a-thi... but I want to start a poll out of curiosity.

When the first project was rebooted we thought we were listening to the majority's opinion to offer a game with basic components. Yet since doing so the majority opinion now seems to be the opposite, you'd rather have the minis back.

I have been told of no plans to reboot this project and as far as I know there are no plans to do so. But hypothetically, if it were being considered, what are your opinions?

Poll
1. If the project was restarted and offered the minis with the game again for $100 would you back the project at that pledge level?
Yes
No
2. If the project was restarted and offered the custom meeples with the game for $100 would you back the project at that pledge level?
Yes
No
3. If the project was restarted and offered the basic components with the game again for $79 would you back the project at that pledge level?
Yes
No
4. Would canceling the project a second time, even if the minis returned in the next attempt, upset you to the point that you would no longer back the project at all?
Yes
No
5. Would you rather see this project succeed as it is in the current Kickstarter, or would you rather see it return to what it was the first time with minis, even though the funding goal would go back up to $50,000?
I want you to stay the course with the current Kickstarter project.
I want you to return to the original Kickstarter project.
It doesn't matter which way you go I will back it either way.
It doesn't matter which way you go I will never back this project.
      133 answers
Poll created by CMG2
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Since it isn't in he options for the last question...

I wouldn't mind seeing the funding goal become 100k or 150k if that what it takes of economy of scale to give me the game you want to offer at a price low enough that I think it is worth it.
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David Hoffman
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Obviously, I have a little bias (I think this is the first time I've been mentioned in someone's OP -- weird), but for whatever it's worth:

1. I'd back the game with minis for $100.00.

2. I'd back the game with meeples for $100.00 -- but if minis were offerred too, I'd go for the minis over the meeples.

3. I answered "no" because of (1) and (2) -- but I think $79 is still just a bit too much. $69?

4. I answered "no". I love your games and I want you to succeed. My disappointment over the reboot is that I feel you caved to the vocal minority and did yourself a disservice.

5. I didn't answer this one b/c none of them suit my feelings. I don't want you to return to the original; a reboot should be bold and aggressive. Alien Frontiers was the first "big" Kickstarter. Hit the damned ground running!

I think it'd be great to see this take off. The point of my post was to offer options but have the "base" be the minis version. Meeples and generic components should be limited rewards; put them there for the folks who want them, but make the minis drive the bus. And make sure folks know it. $100 for minis (unlimited) or meeples (limited), $69 for cubes and cylinders, etc (limited).

Edit: I did vote, too, but I feel strongly about this and wanted to offer a little additional feedback . . .
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Nicholas Vitek
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Your first KS ran for what, 11 days and hit about 20k after the surge at start.

You had another 3 or so weeks left, including a large jump at the end.

Instead of appealing to the 20k of support, you listened to a group of people who yelled loud but not in numbers like they seem to have thought.

If you'd have waited out the original, you'd have good information to make a decision. Now it just looks like you figured you'd get a larger profit margin by going away from minis while keeping a very high price. It appears to me that this was an attempt to reboot for maximum profit instead of actually catering to your customers.

You're at 19.3k out of $25k.
At this point you're hitting a ramp at the end hopefully. Stick it out. Don't cancel the project again. If it hits 25k, publish te game. If it doesn't you know that people don't want it at $79. If you pull the plug now, it definitely looks like there's something wrong. Your goal of $25k was unrealistic and you wanted to blow past it. Cancelling means you can't really publish it at 25k is one view.


Ask yourself this, you started a project with a goal of 50k. In less than two weeks people ponied up 40% of that goal. You bailed. You set up a project with a 25k goal. You've got a week left to make 5.5k. Do you want the game to be published (at this point you'll make your goal no problem) or do you only want to make the game if its a break out success(which it doesn't look like it'll hit at this point).

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Vinson H
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For me, as a Canadian backer, shipping is very important. The original $40/$50 shipping was the breaker for me. I said no to the original (5th question) because of it. Otherwise, I would have been okay with either.
 
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I was going to back but not for the reasons above.

First off, lack of exclusives. David at Springboards was adamant about not having any exclusives for backers. Now showing just one. Thread here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/983359/exclusives-or-promos-.... Even Alien Frontiers in it's fourth edition had promos. Fourth Edition! I backed this by the way. It's by Springboard by the way.

Second, Way to expensive! With minis or custom meeples $70 tops.

Third, this feels to me more like a pre-order thank a kickstarter.

This kickstarter has left a bad taste in my mouth and no matter what happens, I wouldn't back it.

Just my 2 cents.
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Unfortunately I do not have the money at this time to back the project, but if I did I would have backed the original kickstarter.
 
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This isn't an option so I don't know if it is feasible, but I think what would excite people would be if you offered the minis but set the funding goal high enough that the economies of scale would allow you to offer the game for lower than the $100.

Euphoria, I believe, was the biggest Euro game project thus far and raised about $300,000. If you set the funding goal for half that would the cost per mini shrink enough to offer the game with minis for $79?

I know it seems crazy to propose a $150,000 funding goal when the current project is struggling to raise $25,000, but I think that is how KS works. Only a small minority of supporters do so simply out of love for the particular game. I mean Euphoria had a cool theme and some unique art, but it's a worker placement game with dice. There's nothing about the game itself that caused Euro fans to support the project in droves. People poured money into the project because the price was low enough that it felt like a good deal and the project exclusives were interesting enough to make kickstarting worth any small premium we were paying over those who wait for retail.

In other words, you probably have 150 or so people who have played the game or think the game looks perfect for them or just love anything with dragons. These people just want the game. They'll pay $100 with minis or $79 with cubes because for them they are paying for a game, not for components. Then there is another group of people who will only buy a cheaper version with cubes or who will only buy a version with minis. Whichever direction you go you probably alienate one of these groups, but they seem to pretty much cancel each other out. Unless you can figure out a way to implement multiple options in the project, this choice doesn't matter that much.

To make the project wildly successful you need to capture the thousands of other potential backers who are simply looking for a deal on a board game. This group wants assurance that the price they are paying is significantly lower than what they will pay at retail and they want to see material rewards for backing the project. Obviously don't make essential gameplay features into stretch goals or promos (see Dark, Darker, Darkest) but do give reasons to kickstart.

Kickstarter, for better or worse, is as much or more about psychology as producing a good product.
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Nich wrote:
Now it just looks like you figured you'd get a larger profit margin by going away from minis while keeping a very high price. It appears to me that this was an attempt to reboot for maximum profit instead of actually catering to your customers.
So many conspiracy theories. What we did we did for the customers who were speaking up. Easing up on the international shipping by actively forming relationships in other parts of the world (not as some would say, having the US subsidize the shipping of the internationals) is not catering to our customers?

Nich wrote:
If you pull the plug now, it definitely looks like there's something wrong. Your goal of $25k was unrealistic and you wanted to blow past it. Cancelling means you can't really publish it at 25k is one view.
First, let me repeat, there are no current plans to pull the plug. Second, these are just more conspiracy theories. The only thing "wrong" is that the project has been going nowhere fast for a couple weeks now. The goal is not unrealistic and the game can certainly be published if we reach it.

Nich wrote:
You've got a week left to make 5.5k. Do you want the game to be published (at this point you'll make your goal no problem) or do you only want to make the game if its a break out success(which it doesn't look like it'll hit at this point).
I understand most projects have a late surge. Forgive me for feeling pessimistic about this one. I don't need a breakout success, but I do need to at least see something to give me hope.
 
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I understand you want to get feedback, but this poll doesn't exude confidence in your project, when it still has the final week ramp that most projects have.

I'm not a backer (for personal reasons), but you've already cancelled the project once, and now you're showing a shaky hand again. That wouldn't sit well with me, and I'm sure it doesn't sit well with most investors (which is what KS backers are...not consumers).

At this point, I think an PP's mention about letting it ride is the best course of action. Go out with a bang, and be confident with the decisions you've made. If it falls short, then try again by changing up some things. But this constant back and forth, possibly cancelling again, is just going to leave a bad taste in some peoples' mouths.
 
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Ahzile wrote:
For me, as a Canadian backer, shipping is very important. The original $40/$50 shipping was the breaker for me. I said no to the original (5th question) because of it. Otherwise, I would have been okay with either.
I am pretty sure the new shipping methods would remain intact.
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yaverot wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing the funding goal become 100k or 150k if that what it takes of economy of scale to give me the game you want to offer at a price low enough that I think it is worth it.
This. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people (me included) who would like to back this game if the perceived value for money was good. The price for the game with miniatures was too high, given that there were only four sculpts, and they were not even very detailed. In the current project, frankly, $80 for generic components and $120 for wooden meeples is beyond ridiculous. Of course, it appears a number of people disagree and the project may be funded. But it would certainly have been much more successful if the prices were reasonable.
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Prefer minis with a lower cost. I know I will get flamed for this but $100 for less than 10 unique sculpts is high.

Also cheaper international shipping is important too. That being said, I sort of went on a Kickstarter spree recently so would have pass on it for the moment.
 
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weezknight wrote:
I understand you want to get feedback, but this poll doesn't exude confidence in your project, when it still has the final week ramp that most projects have.

I'm not a backer (for personal reasons), but you've already cancelled the project once, and now you're showing a shaky hand again. That wouldn't sit well with me, and I'm sure it doesn't sit well with most investors (which is what KS backers are...not consumers).

At this point, I think an PP's mention about letting it ride is the best course of action. Go out with a bang, and be confident with the decisions you've made. If it falls short, then try again by changing up some things. But this constant back and forth, possibly cancelling again, is just going to leave a bad taste in some peoples' mouths.
This poll is my creation alone and Game Salute has nothing to do with it. There is no shakiness, just my curiosity. Thanks for your input.
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There is basically only one way to get me to back this $60 game. Offer it with a $60 price tag.

Sorry it isn't working out as planned, I was very interested in this game, but the production of this game simply wasn't thought out. The game in no way strikes me as "epic", which is what you'll need to get me to drop 100 bones on it.

I disagree with the others that a cancel/reboot would be some sort of major catastrophe - but only if it is a serious re-working. Going back to Plan A would not qualify.
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CMG2 wrote:
So many conspiracy theories. What we did we did for the customers who were speaking up. Easing up on the international shipping by actively forming relationships in other parts of the world (not as some would say, having the US subsidize the shipping of the internationals) is not catering to our customers?
Not a conspiracy theory, just a negative perception. You could have easily updated the current project with new shipping information instead of cancelling. You didn't. You cancelled the project.

This makes it appear that you valued one group of customers (people who weren't willing to pay >$100) over another group (people who were willing to pay >$100) after the second group had already started showing you support.

Quote:
First, let me repeat, there are no current plans to pull the plug. Second, these are just more conspiracy theories. The only thing "wrong" is that the project has been going nowhere fast for a couple weeks now. The goal is not unrealistic and the game can certainly be published if we reach it.
Have you actually watched KickStarter campaigns? The majority of them ALL stall out in the middle unless you do something to actively keep people interested. I haven't seen anything of the sort. No great sneak peaks (though I've enjoyed the Guild looks), no 'pledge by this date to get an extra widget], just nothing but silence broken only by a bit of negativity.

If you don't want the stall, you need to focus on breaking it.
Quote:
I understand most projects have a late surge. Forgive me for feeling pessimistic about this one. I don't need a breakout success, but I do need to at least see something to give me hope.
You have $20,000 dollars of something giving you hope.

You have 18 days where your project went positive.
Of those 18 days, if you discount the first week, you have 11 days where your project went positive (for a total of ~$2.8k)

You have 5 days where your project went negative (for a total of ~$1,000).

Overall you're looking like you'll make it and will have $25,000 of gamers' pledges in your pocket (-~10%).

I personally was backing the original project as soon as I saw it but it was cancelled not that long later to cater to people who wanted to shave $21 off the price they paid. At that price, it wasn't the package for me. But I wish you luck in publishing it. I greatly enjoy the other product you've put out.

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I agree as well that though I think the game looks great, I won't back it for $100, it really would have to be $60 to cause me to back it again. Not saying I believe all the conspiracy theories but I do not understand how all of your competition can offer games with just as good of components for $30 cheaper. Even when I bought Eclipse, which is a box full of great components, it was around $60.

You guys are pricing this game out of relevance. Aside from the few die hard fans, minis, no minis, I don't see it doing more than barely scraping past its funding goal without a large price drop.

You can say over and over again that you can't do better, but I don't buy it. Euphoria is from a relatively new company and I feel like just as good of components. Admittedly less components, but custom dice. The difference is $30 in price. I don't get it.

I know you don't want to talk about or hear about price again, but that's the reality.
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Plain and simple, people aren't going to pony up $100+ for every game with minis. Just because Zombicide and a few others garnered success doesn't mean every game with little plastic people should expect consumers to max out their credit cards for it. Offer us a Kickstarter that's new, innovative and fresh, not more overpriced plastic and expect the same success.

Game companies need to give us $100+ value if they're going to charge those prices. I believe Dark Darker Darkest has hit this same issue, although it's still received mild success.

As a side note, I like many others have caught onto the Kickstarter pre-order vehicle being leveraged by publishing companies and have decided "no", I'll just wait to get it at a reasonable price online. The reality is the game will be published and I will get it cheaper. I don't need to pay a premium to get it early. Not worth it.
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While I certainly wasn't part of the apparently vocal minority, I took one look at the price tag for the original game and politely opted out; I pledged $5 just to be a part of the fun. Any perceptions of the value proposition were irrelevant in my case--I just knew that $100 was out of my budget (take one look at my game collection and you'll see I usually stick to the $35 variety--Alien Frontiers is the most expensive game I own).

I had heard in private a few days later, however, that the campaign would possibly be reworked to lower the price and lower the goal. "Hooray," I thought, but when I saw the result, I must admit that a bit of the charm had packed up and moved out with the minis. That said, knowing how the game was played, and keeping in mind that Alien Frontiers is the only game in my collection that goes to *every* game night, I figured "what the heck," and I backed. Happily. I'm still rooting for you guys! I'm just saying that if I had a time machine, I'd go back and just cough up the $21 for the better production quality.

I hope we can all appreciate the fact that not one iota of the negativity surrounding this game has anything to do with the quality of the gaming experience. That's a plus--that this being a great game is a given.

I don't really know what to do with this rant, or how to end it, so I'll just say that while anything over $50 is kind of out of my comfort zone, I like CMJ, I want you guys to succeed, and I'm confident that if the game funds, I'll get a great game out of it. Whatever happens, I hope y'all got to make the game y'all wanted to make.

Good luck with the last week.
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Would it be possible to rework the game to use, say, a third of the number of player tokens and then include wooden meeples at a lower price point?

Surely it doesn't need sixty-four dragons and seventy-two king's guard? What if each player had twelve supporters and one dragon, and then there were a dozen or so king's guard? I like dragon meeples as much as the next person, but one would be enough.
 
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While I was greatly disappointed to see the miniatures removed, I could have overcome that and go for the meeples. But paying $40 extra just for meeples is way too expensive for my blood.

As I understand it, the meeples are replacing the wooden cubes, not just added to the box as an "expanson pack". This just makes the price jump even more ridiculous. As a consumer I do not care what the size of the print run is - I just care about getting value for money!

On top of that - the resource meeples later got pushed further down the list. Another disappointing move...
Clearly most people want the meeples, with the current offer. Paying a premium price, but not having the resource tokens upgraded to the same quality, is not the way to go IMHO.

I do not expect a reboot and it is too late to make the necessary changes to the current campaign, so I am not going to back this one.
The price is simply too high for what is offered. Knowing the price is going to be even more ridiculous in my FLGS, I realize I will not get to play this one ever.
I guess I can do nothing else than wish you good luck with the campaign - the game looks great!
 
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your game over price , 79us only hard paper?

I think you game 60us include meeples will more people buy.

I think you can see the zman games thier price , they are normal price.

and they have discount on online store.


You can do but I think you don't want reduce the price.

I tell you if you reduce the price you can receive more!!
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If only I could pledge as an individual...
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The last question really needed a "This game looks awesome and I would TOTALLY back it at a lower price" option. I know you've heard it over and over, but that is the bottom line.

The first KS was not worth $100 to most people. It is not comparable to Zombicide et al because it is not a miniatures board game. The sculpts were not varied and detailed enough. And it did not have crazy bonus stuff thrown in to add value.

The current KS is not worth $80 to most people. It cannot be denied that dozens of your competitors manage to print games with similar components and production values, at a much lower price point. Even if this game is awesome and totally bound for the top 100 games on BGG, people can use that $80 to buy 2 or 3 top 100 games, and I mean games with a large number of components, not just little filler games and such.

The add-on price for the custom wooden meeples in both projects was too high for most people. There are other games with custom meeples that are not that expensive. I mean, the kingsguard could have been the same shape as the supporter dudes, and that surely would have lowered the price of the custom wooden meeples, right?

I've heard the comments from on high that it's a total drag that people are complaining about the price, without even knowing anything about board game publishing. I admit, I don't know that much about board game publishing, but I can look around with my own eyes and see that other companies who DO know about boardgame publishing are offering similar components at a lower price, even with small print runs.

I am not hating on this KS, and nothing has happened so far that would make me never back this project. I WOULD back this project, if it were at a price point that was comparable to comparable games.
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I answered yes to most of those questions, but the real answer is 'probably'. I also think I answered Yes when I meant "no" to the kickstarter restart, though it would upset my sensibilities to want to see things through.

I would be more inclined to back the game at 100, with either meeple or minis, IF each faction had their own design. For some reason, that's important to me. I know it would increase the amount needed to fund by a good bit, but yeah, I would really feel better if it had that. For me, if I'm going to indulge in something like custom figures, I want them to be really custom.

On the other side of things, I do not mind if my wooden blocks are not custom. I like the minimal. I'd love for this to be somehow done at 60-70, but I'm sure if that could happen, it would have.

From a cost to component standpoint, the minis make more sense to me. But without unique designs for each faction, I lean towards whatever is cheapest.

Basically, given the choice, I would not pay $20 for a bunch of different colored minis of the same design. I would pay $20 for different minis for each faction, which would add a lot more value to me. I don't know if I prefer wooden meeples vs plastic minis, but I'd probably lean towards meeples just because I like that euro style.

When I found out it was 80 instead of 100, I was not very excited. I was saving money, which is nice, but it wasn't really enough to make me happy, it just felt like a trade off instead. At 60 I would have been happy. At 70, it was a compromise. At 80, I felt like it was sort of just a trade off.

I still think this is an awesome game, even though I haven't played it. I don't back many games that aren't reprints or expansions that I haven't played. I think this is worth it as long as it remains 100 or less. After that, I just wouldn't be able to justify it without playing it first. It's hard enough to justify it now, just because I stay away from expensive games (not saying it isn't worth it), because it makes my wallet cry.

I've mentioned on twitter how much I think the artwork is amazing. I also like the fact that it isn't overly sexist. So many fantasy games have skimpy outfits on women. Thank you so much for not doing that to this game. I love how elves are still a bit skimpy, but it feels natural, and they even look a bit androgynous and alien. I love that. Karlia Fahs is the only card I've seen where I feel like it doesn't fit a bit, but it's still well done and tasteful. This is probably the best fantasy art I've seen in any game. Thank you.

On the theme side of things, a neat idea for an expansion or stretch goal might be some kind of Alien Frontier Factions sort of asymmetrical ability that could only be use rarely. (maybe this already exists and I forgot about it). I like the universe you've crafted in the art so much, I want to know about each prince I am playing. Of course, that would dash my long-shot hope that it would be changed to "Heirs Of The Dragon Throne" haha (only halfway serious). Perhaps that could be another expansion/stretch goal :P
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