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Subject: Influencing dice roll results? rss

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Alky Yance
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I got the game this weekend and I've been playing it everyday, and I have to admit that I'm getting a little frustrated about losing at the game several times. I'm still quite new to board gaming in general, but I have extensive experience in Heroclix (I've been playing that game from 1999 until 2012) which is a very competitive dice collectable miniatures game.

So I mulled it over - why do I keep losing? And how? After a few games, it was clear: I primarily kept losing because of the minion wheel. I just could not stop the minion wheel from getting too much cheese. When does the minion wheel get cheese? The usual cause is when minions attack or defend. And I can't avoid combat - the game mechanics require that I kill off all the minions before I can explore.

Lily's ability helps as she stops minions from getting cheese when defending. Filch takes away cheese from the minion wheel when killing rats. And the Fickle amulet prevents attacking minions from getting cheese. Outside of those effects, are there any other things that can help?

I also noticed that there's very few ways to affect dice rolls after the dice has been rolled. Again, I have very little board gaming experience, but from the few board games that I've played (Last Night on Earth, A Touch of Evil, Level 7 [Escape], King of Tokyo), that mechanic exists. No matter how sound my strategy is, when those cheeses show up on the dice, I'm completely helpless.
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John "Omega" Williams
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Most pure solo or co-op games tend to lean to the harder side to maintain a challenge factor.

Though it is also possible you are missing some little rule and getting more cheese on the wheel than you otherwise would be.
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It's been a while since I played this, but something strikes me as being wrong in your description. I don't think you add cheese when minions roll it on both attack and defense. Can anybody verify that (rulebook not handy).
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Alky Yance
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It's on Page 15, under Surges:

Each time 1 or more cheese symbols are rolled when attacking or defending with a minion, add 1 cheese token to the minion cheese wheel for each cheese rolled.
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Alky Yance
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Omega2064 wrote:
Most pure solo or co-op games tend to lean to the harder side to maintain a challenge factor.

Though it is also possible you are missing some little rule and getting more cheese on the wheel than you otherwise would be.
I'm only adding cheese during the following:

1. When I roll cheese while attacking/defending with Minions
1.1 Brodie not included in this.
1.2 I don't roll for defending if the mice don't have successful
hits.
2. When a full turn passes and there are no minions on the board.
3. When Greedy Roaches successfully hit and take cheese from one of the mice.
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TheLabRat wrote:
It's on Page 15, under Surges:

Each time 1 or more cheese symbols are rolled when attacking or defending with a minion, add 1 cheese token to the minion cheese wheel for each cheese rolled.
My bad. blush
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Alky Yance
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Seriously, it's tough. My mice seldom get captured, so it's not what's causing the hourglass marker to move closer to Chapter End. My games end because the hourglass marker reaches the end before I complete the objective.

I've tried using Filch, but he only gets to kill off Rats once per full turn, and that's assuming that he actually gets to kill off Rats. I haven't tried combining Filch and Collin's Give Orders ability, I think that's going to help a lot. But how do you win if you don't have Filch/Collin in the party?

Same with Lily, she only gets to attack one minion per turn and her ability doesn't do anything with the cheese that's already on the wheel.

There are limited ways to move the Chapter End marker further up and give me more time. I can't figure it out - getting cheese is really, really dependent on lucky/unlucky rolls.
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Bradford Lounsberry
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A game like this does depend on the luck of the dice for sure. The only real good way to manage the minion wheel is through Filch. Give him Energy Rush and he can remove up to 2 cheese from the wheel. Combo him with Colin's Battle Leader ability or Give Order ability and you can get even more attacks with Filch. I also like giving Filch some sort of ranged weapon to ensure he is attacking every turn.

That said, my daughter chooses the mice we use and she rarely brings Filch despite my love for the little thief. We still manage. I think you have just gone through a bad spell.

A common mistake is to allow the Surge to summon Surge minions more than once per tile. If you are doing that then don't. Only one Surge encounter per tile. Every Surge after that just moves the hourglass.

If you are having hourglass problems, the only thing you can do there is get some achievements (some not all do this) to move the chapter end marker back.
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Some things that help. Control the wheel.

Use ranged mice to attack from range. They roll less dice on defense in general then attack.

Use tinkerer's tolls to get good ofensive weapons for mice like, Filch, Tilda, or Lilly. The extra offensive punch can really help.

Lilly's accurate shot can help. Filch's Energy Rush is also good, and so is Colin's Give Order.

Try your best to avoid the extra cheese from hanging out in a room. One extra cheese can multiply down the road.

Get achievements they help.

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Sander Engels
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One other thing that helps a little bit is reducing the number of dice that minions roll, mainly for defense. Daggers, Accurate Shot and Meeps are a couple of examples that may help. Also, very occasionally, you can use a Slow scroll or the Battle Leader ability to skip minion turns/increase the number of mouse turns, lowering the number of dice they roll for attacks.

The Roachmaster achievement, aside from moving the Chapter End marker, also protect against Greedy Roaches. Greedy Roaches always give us trouble. An alternative (but much less attractive) option to protect against Greedy Roaches is to make sure your mice don't have cheese...
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John "Omega" Williams
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Sounds like it may be a problem of advancement somewhere. Possibly adding when shouldnt be. Sounds very familliar to a problem discussed in an older thread but cant pin it down.

Here is one comment.

Quote:
IE: Miz Maggie, you advance the 'The End' marker, not the hourglass marker. Successfully alerting Miz Maggie gives you more time to complete the chapter. When the adventure book tells you to advance one of the markers, pay close attention to which marker you're supposed to advance. The 'The End' marker is advanced in several chapters where advancing the hourglass marker by mistake will make the chapter impossible to finish.



TheLabRat wrote:
Seriously, it's tough. My mice seldom get captured, so it's not what's causing the hourglass marker to move closer to Chapter End. My games end because the hourglass marker reaches the end before I complete the objective.
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Alky Yance
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Thanks for the tips, everyone. I have to admit, I underestimated the Energy Rush ability, it's really, really good.

I double-checked everything, and trust me, I only add cheese on the aforementioned instances. I know that Chapter End advances to Page 7 upon getting the Miz Maggie achievement. I know that if you happen to get more than 6 cheese on the wheel, you clear the wheel completely when you surge. I spawn surges only once per tile.

Maybe it's just a really bad streak of luck - during my games prior to posting, every other time a minion attacks or defends, a cheese (or more) is rolled. What made me thnik twice about my strategies is when, on the tile before the kitchen, we were only 1 cheese away from a surge. We decided to have the surge there, instead of getting Brodie with all the roaches. What do we get? A lone spider. What happened? On one of the spider's defenses, three freakin' cheese are rolled (just one roll). We end up with another surge (no spawns, just the hourglass moving up) before we're even able to defeat the spider. And no, it only happens during the minions turn, we had very bad luck rolling cheese on our own turns.

I just got used to other games where re-roll effects were a little more common. I'm not used to being completely at the mercy of the initial die roll results. Maybe it's a case of bad luck, maybe I need a dice tower, I'm not giving up on the game, it's too good to not play just because I'm having trouble beating it.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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According to designer commentary. Every chapter can be beaten by a starter group. Some will be harder than others of course. So. It looks more like a string of bad luck.

Worse case scenario is that you are subconsciously influencing the dice rolls on a micro-reflex level to validate some persieved problem with the game. Unlikely.

As for dice rolls being as is. Um... that is the norm not the exception. Out of all the games I have old and new, only 2 that are not express games allows re-rolls.
 
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Jason Bowen
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Me and my wife play and we redid chapters 1 and 2 so much because of that same problem. We were losing because of cheese rolls. It got a lot better once we realized they don't get to defend if we don't actually connect on an attack.

Also...I did not know that the chapter END marker moves when you alert maggie and not the HOURGLASS marker....DOH

I typically play as Filch though because of his dagger reducing -1 def roles (if higher on inititive (which he rarely is) and his cheese steal from rats.
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Nardraug wrote:
Me and my wife play and we redid chapters 1 and 2 so much because of that same problem. We were losing because of cheese rolls.
See, that's where you're going wrong; you need a better snack-food when playing this game. Perhaps Fish for the brain or Nuts ('cos mice don't really like cheese anyway)

Quote:
It got a lot better once we realized they don't get to defend if we don't actually connect on an attack.
blush

Quote:
Also...I did not know that the chapter END marker moves when you alert maggie and not the HOURGLASS marker....DOH
this is beginning to sound like a post from the Arkham Horror forum goo (I had similar issues myself with my first few plays of M&M, so I'm not mocking)

Quote:
I typically play as Filch though because of his dagger reducing -1 def roles (if higher on inititive (which he rarely is) and his cheese steal from rats.
Yeah, right... like I'm ever higher on the initiative when I play Filch.
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Jerry Hawthorne
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Don't forget dodge either. Avoiding an attack roll is also avoiding potential cheese. Use intense cowering if you have it to avoid the really big rolls.
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Alky Yance
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After getting a few more games under my belt, I realized what we was doing wrong strategically. The biggest flaw in what we were doing was failing to take into account the Individual Achievements.

It's true, we're mostly helpless against minions rolling cheese during combat, but we can offset the Page progression by working on getting the Individual Achievements (particularly the Roachmaster and Scaper ones).

We still lost a game or two badly, but that was due to poor placement of our mice during combat as well as not thinking about the party's function - our losses came when we both had Maginos and Lily in the party as ranged attackers.

Thanks to everyone who gave suggestions!
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Alex G
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It does seem to be luck, especially the "one surge a tile" part. We usually get one surge every OTHER tile. Between Meeps and dagger ability, our minions rarely roll cheese on defense.

EDIT: Also don't (!) chase "scaper" achievement. Time advances by one step whenever a mouse gets captured, so you will lose 2 time and only gain 1 in return. Try to avoid being captured altogether if possible.
 
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Martin Mesko
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In my opinion, the minion wheel is the biggest flaw of this game. After more than few games I've realized that we're not fighting against minions or bosses, but against the wheel. Any fight was hardly a challenge and with correct positioning and a bit of luck, no mice have died for a long time.

I feel the "time pressure" part should be included, but the fights should be more about trading blows with minions than running out of time. Currently there is little to no attrition as you can heal easily everything as soon as Tilda gets her turn. This makes her more-less a heal bot.

In a nutshell, current rules are about defeating everyone fast enough so that they don't generate too much cheese and grabbing correct achievements to move the pages.
 
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