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Subject: The real story on laws supposedly meant to eliminate voter fraud in the US rss

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Moshe Callen
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This video which is primarily about NC elections sums the case up very well.

If short, BJ and others for this non-sense, I'm not buying it and enither are the people running elections in the US.
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You think will convince them? I don't know about race, but it will disenfranchise those who work long hours (and that I suspect is the real point).
 
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slatersteven wrote:
You think will convince them? I don't know about race, but it will disenfranchise those who work long hours.
Actually I credit them with too much intelligence to really believe their nonsense themselves.
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
You think will convince them? I don't know about race, but it will disenfranchise those who work long hours.
Actually I credit them with too much intelligence to really believe their nonsense themselves.
OK, maybe I should reword it.

Do you really think that this will convince them these proposal will not achieve what they want?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
You think will convince them? I don't know about race, but it will disenfranchise those who work long hours.
Actually I credit them with too much intelligence to really believe their nonsense themselves.
OK, maybe I should reword it.

Do you really think that this will convince them these proposal will not achieve what they want?
Who says it won't? Disenfranchising certain voters might well be what they want.
 
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
You think will convince them? I don't know about race, but it will disenfranchise those who work long hours.
Actually I credit them with too much intelligence to really believe their nonsense themselves.
OK, maybe I should reword it.

Do you really think that this will convince them these proposal will not achieve what they want?
Who says it won't? Disenfranchising certain voters might well be what they want.
I don't think that is what they want, but it is a way of achieving it. I think I worded my point badly, I meant to say that I do not think this will convince them not to support this law as they are fully aware of what it will mean (and it's real motivation).
 
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So you are saying what?

States that don't allow early voting (Alabama, Connecticut, Delaware, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, and Virginia) are racist, have illegitimate elections, what?

External image


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_voting#United_States

Should early voting go on for months and months instead of weeks?

What about states that have postal-only elections? Do you think there could be some fraud there?

I see people vote early at Missouri courthouses all the time even though my state supposedly doesn't have early voting. I suppose the person just says that he doesn't know if he will in town that day. I think that is about all it takes.

And why don't I get to have an awesome, ominous musical soundtrack?

I suppose a lot of the argument for early voting depends upon the number of voting machines that each location has. However, I've certainly never had to use a voting machine and have never waited in line to vote for more than a few seconds. Sign in and get your ballot. I don't know why some places seem to have such problems -- probably run by Democrats.
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sikeospi wrote:
So you are saying what?

States that don't allow early voting [...] are racist, have illegitimate elections, what?

Should early voting go on for months and months instead of weeks?
The pattern where states are reducing the amount of early voting days, and remove Sundays in particular is very suspect.
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Quote:
The pattern where states are reducing the amount of early voting days, and remove Sundays in particular is very suspect.
Uh. No, it really isn't

-- unless they don't have enough voting contraption thingees. (Heck, I've never even seen one of these things.) You would need to run some type of statistical analysis to determine that there are not enough voting machines, and one side would never be happy with the results anyway. Besides there could always be a power outage, a natural disaster, or another September 11th-type election.

I suspect that voting machines were partially promoted to encourage lots of party-line voting anyway.
 
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sikeospi wrote:
Quote:
The pattern where states are reducing the amount of early voting days, and remove Sundays in particular is very suspect.
Uh. No, it really isn't

-- unless they don't have enough voting contraption thingees. (Heck, I've never even seen one of these things.) You would need to run some type of statistical analysis to determine that there are not enough voting machines, and one side would never be happy with the results anyway. Besides there could always be a power outage, a natural disaster, or another September 11th-type election.

I suspect that voting machines were partially promoted to encourage lots of party-line voting anyway.
I think the video says exactly that, there will not be enough voting machines.
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sikeospi wrote:
So you are saying what?...
I recommend a logic course. Your leaps of logic would embarrass Barry Chamish.
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So, given the margins of victory in the vast majority of national elections* , and the sheer numbers of votes involved, does anybody really believe that voter fraud** is a viable way of tampering with elections at anything more than a very local level (where 100 votes is a significant % of votes cast)? Even in the most purple of states, flipping 10,000 votes from one candidate to another (a net 20,000 vote shift) would impact, at most, one or two national races. Is this really a legislative priority? I'm not saying don't police it. I'm not saying don't prosecute the hell out of it when you find it occurring. I am saying that spending time coming up with various new schemes to try to curtail it (whatever you think the underlying motives are) has a really poor return on investment.







*In the US House races it averages 33%, that is, the winner captures 33% more of the vote than the loser (Thanks, gerrymandering***)

**In this case, voter fraud would be people who are ineligible to vote voting or individuals voting more than once

*** aka, where real vote fraud occurs
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sikeospi wrote:
So you are saying what?

States that don't allow early voting (Alabama, Connecticut, Delaware, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, and Virginia) are racist, have illegitimate elections, what?

External image


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_voting#United_States

Should early voting go on for months and months instead of weeks?

What about states that have postal-only elections? Do you think there could be some fraud there?

I see people vote early at Missouri courthouses all the time even though my state supposedly doesn't have early voting. I suppose the person just says that he doesn't know if he will in town that day. I think that is about all it takes.

And why don't I get to have an awesome, ominous musical soundtrack?

I suppose a lot of the argument for early voting depends upon the number of voting machines that each location has. However, I've certainly never had to use a voting machine and have never waited in line to vote for more than a few seconds. Sign in and get your ballot. I don't know why some places seem to have such problems -- probably run by Democrats.
The question isn't really whether or not a state HAS early voting. Whether or not such practices are reasonably necessary to accomodate the right of franchise is a state by state question.

The real question is WHY those states that already had early voting (presumably because the legislature thought it was necessary) are REDUCING or ELIMINATING early voting. It is entirely fair to ask why a change in policy when such change will arguably have a disproportionate impact on the non-majority party in a given jurisdiction.

This is why we have seen court challenges.
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Quote:
If short, BJ and others for this non-sense, I'm not buying it and enither are the people running elections in the US. ... I recommend a logic course. Your leaps of logic would embarrass Barry Chamish.
Grognads?

I guess you are far too smart for me.

...

Black Americans now vote in higher percentages than White Americans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/us/politics/rate-of-black-...

...

Fifteenth Amendment is arguably the only reason why there is a Republican Party today. General Grant wouldn't have won the popular vote without it. Without it the country could have been split between a neo-racist Southern Party and Northern Tammany Hall Party and perhaps a Winfield Hancock NRA party, and history could have been much different.

...

Quote:
The real question is WHY those states that already had early voting (presumably because the legislature thought it was necessary) are REDUCING or ELIMINATING early voting.
It's called progress. Perhaps someone else thinks that drive-through windows at voting precincts, voting over the Internet, and having 14-year-olds or 16-year-olds voting or preregistered to vote is progress.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/politicalsystem/a/teenvoteca.h...

(Perhaps someone who lives in a state that has only voted for one party for governor since the Carter administration doesn't understand this.)

...

The video references North Carolina which was sending out absentee ballots the morning after Barack Obama was nominated for president, back on September 7.

However, many voters say that they want to wait for the debates.

Was September 7 perhaps still not early enough for some reason?

Early voting is not without isn't problems

-- it favors those with an early lead
-- it favors incumbents
-- it favors those who have lots of money
-- it favors those with large organizational support
-- it doesn't allow someone to change their mind if a scandal or something else occurs in the next few weeks or months.
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sikeospi wrote:
Quote:
If short, BJ and others for this non-sense, I'm not buying it and enither are the people running elections in the US. ... I recommend a logic course. Your leaps of logic would embarrass Barry Chamish.
Grognads?

I guess you are far too smart for me.

...

Black Americans now vote in higher percentages than White Americans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/09/us/politics/rate-of-black-...

...

Fifteenth Amendment is arguably the only reason why there is a Republican Party today. General Grant wouldn't have won the popular vote without it. Without it the country could have been split between a neo-racist Southern Party and Northern Tammany Hall Party and perhaps a Winfield Hancock NRA party, and history could have been much different.

...

Quote:
The real question is WHY those states that already had early voting (presumably because the legislature thought it was necessary) are REDUCING or ELIMINATING early voting.
It's called progress. Perhaps someone else thinks that drive-through windows at voting precincts, voting over the Internet, and having 14-year-olds or 16-year-olds voting or preregistered to vote is progress.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/politicalsystem/a/teenvoteca.h...

(Perhaps someone who lives in a state that has only voted for one party for governor since the Carter administration doesn't understand this.)

...

The video references North Carolina which was sending out absentee ballots the morning after Barack Obama was nominated for president, back on September 7.

However, many voters say that they want to wait for the debates.

Was September 7 perhaps still not early enough for some reason?

Early voting is not without isn't problems

-- it favors those with an early lead
-- it favors incumbents
-- it favors those who have lots of money
-- it favors those with large organizational support
-- it doesn't allow someone to change their mind if a scandal or something else occurs in the next few weeks or months.
How is restricting early voting "progress"?

You've identified a number of factors that a group believes favors another group. Said group then, incredibly cynically, wants to change the rules to obtain an electoral advantage.

I can even see how a person may think thats a positive if they are so idealogically wedded to the first group and believe the other is so terribly awful that anything thats hurts them is worthwhile, whether or not its fundamentally undemocratic.

That doesn't make it progress. It just shows that people are capable of rationalising anything.





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sikeospi wrote:

The video references North Carolina which was sending out absentee ballots the morning after Barack Obama was nominated for president, back on September 7.

However, many voters say that they want to wait for the debates.

Was September 7 perhaps still not early enough for some reason?
Absentee voting is not the same thing as Early Voting, they mean specific things in the context of voting.
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Shushnik wrote:
It's a good thing we've changed so much as a country that we can get rid of that pesky voting rights act.

Where's that facepalm emoticon?
if we got rid of the voting completely it wouldnt make a difference anyway - we got our aristocracy all we need is a king BUT A WHITE ONE PLS
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sikeospi wrote:

Early voting is not without isn't problems

-- it favors those with an early lead
-- it favors incumbents
-- it favors those who have lots of money
-- it favors those with large organizational support
-- it doesn't allow someone to change their mind if a scandal or something else occurs in the next few weeks or months.
And since you apparently didn't know the difference between Absentee Voting and Early Voting, how do these actually apply to Early Voting?
 
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sikeospi wrote:

Quote:
The real question is WHY those states that already had early voting (presumably because the legislature thought it was necessary) are REDUCING or ELIMINATING early voting.
It's called progress. Perhaps someone else thinks that drive-through windows at voting precincts, voting over the Internet, and having 14-year-olds or 16-year-olds voting or preregistered to vote is progress.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/politicalsystem/a/teenvoteca.h...

(Perhaps someone who lives in a state that has only voted for one party for governor since the Carter administration doesn't understand this.)

...

The video references North Carolina which was sending out absentee ballots the morning after Barack Obama was nominated for president, back on September 7.

However, many voters say that they want to wait for the debates.

Was September 7 perhaps still not early enough for some reason?

Early voting is not without isn't problems

-- it favors those with an early lead
-- it favors incumbents
-- it favors those who have lots of money
-- it favors those with large organizational support
-- it doesn't allow someone to change their mind if a scandal or something else occurs in the next few weeks or months.
Pretty hard to follow what you are on about. Not sure where the California story has anything to do with early voting. I sure as hell don't think teenagers have the right neural connections for voting, drinking, contracting or....sitting on death row.

As far as the rest, your list of favorites seems pretty conclusory. What evidence do you that early voting favors incumbents, early leads, fincancial resources, or organizations? This seems a potentially disjunctive list in any case.

Regardless, nothing you said touched upon the motive of those states to reduce or eliminate early voting. If such motive is the majority intent to reduce actual votes cast (particularly by the minority party) then such decisions are properly challenged.
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California Senate Passes Bill Allowing Non-Citizen Poll Workers

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/07/08/senate-passes-bill...

Did California actually run out of citizens?

...

So whenever Republicans try to pass a law requiring citizen identification to vote, Democrats will try to pass a law requiring that all such identification be verified by non-citizens.

Ingenious!
 
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sikeospi wrote:
California Senate Passes Bill Allowing Non-Citizen Poll Workers

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/07/08/senate-passes-bill...

Did California actually run out of citizens?

...

So whenever Republicans try to pass a law requiring citizen identification to vote, Democrats will try to pass a law requiring that all such identification be verified by non-citizens.

Ingenious!
Cheapness?, the fact that no one wants to do it so they have to get other workers? No it seems they are not there to check ID, but just to help those who cannot read English (and are citizens) to carry out their Democratic right to vote.
 
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A political commentator recently mentioned some of the accusations thrown at Republicans back in 2000, regarding voting rights. What about these?

"...in disproportionately black areas, people faced dogs, guns, and were required to have three forms of ID." -- Donna Brazile, Al Gore's campaign manager

If Al Gore's campaign manager said it, it must be true. Right?

"The NAACP's National Voter Fund ran ads on black radio stations, saying: 'There are many ways intimidation was, and still is, used to keep African-Americans from voting. Mobs, guns, and Jim Crow. Ropes, dogs, lies, and hoses.' And the NAACP was responsible for the TV ad that recreated the horrific dragging death of James Byrd and all but accused George W. Bush of the murder. This disgraceful ad, which had some of the tone of Nazi propaganda films about Jews, played a central role in undermining Bush's appeal to black voters. In Texas, Bush got 5 percent of the black vote, compared with about 25 percent in his reelection campaign for governor."

Two of the three of Byrd's killers received the death penalty with the other receiving life in prison, but George W. Bush was linked to this brutal murder for some reason?

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/001218/archive...
 
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sikeospi wrote:
A political commentator recently mentioned some of the accusations thrown at Republicans back in 2000, regarding voting rights. What about these?

"...in disproportionately black areas, people faced dogs, guns, and were required to have three forms of ID." -- Donna Brazile, Al Gore's campaign manager

If Al Gore's campaign manager said it, it must be true. Right?

"The NAACP's National Voter Fund ran ads on black radio stations, saying: 'There are many ways intimidation was, and still is, used to keep African-Americans from voting. Mobs, guns, and Jim Crow. Ropes, dogs, lies, and hoses.' And the NAACP was responsible for the TV ad that recreated the horrific dragging death of James Byrd and all but accused George W. Bush of the murder. This disgraceful ad, which had some of the tone of Nazi propaganda films about Jews, played a central role in undermining Bush's appeal to black voters. In Texas, Bush got 5 percent of the black vote, compared with about 25 percent in his reelection campaign for governor."

Two of the three of Byrd's killers received the death penalty with the other receiving life in prison, but George W. Bush was linked to this brutal murder for some reason?

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/001218/archive...
Or all but said that Bush should support anti-hate crime laws because blacks are still the subject of hate crime in America. They did not link Bush to the murder, just to the refusal to pass a law.
 
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"Is the biggest issue in African-American life today the voter ID law? Is that going to alter the course of society in black America, the inner cities? The terrible standard in the schools? The breakdown of the family and all that? It's nostalgia of a movement that's intellectually bankrupt." -- Charles Krauthammer
 
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Good for you, Moshe.

This is the point I tried to make a few weeks ago, and of course I was ridiculed by one side of the crowd here.

This is happening not only in North Carolina, it is likely happening in every Republican controlled county all over the country.

This is the real voter fraud: if you don't want certain groups of people to vote, then make it less likely that they can vote.

I am all for it as it is a winning strategy, and you will see the results in the next election.
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