David Hutton
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
so I think I have the right order of things sussed out here, but just want to check and get corrected if required...

So the Westeros Phase order goes:
- All 3 cards are turned over simultaneously
- The Wildling marker is moved for any Wildling icons that appear on the cards (and attack occurs if 12 is reached)
- Each Westeros card is resolved in order

specifics:
- If 'Winter is Coming' is in either pile I or II, the shuffle/redraw does not occur until it is the turn of that card to be resolved
- If the 'Wildling Attack' card is in pile III, this is a separate resolution to that of the Marker
- If the icons trigger a wildling attack through the track AND the 'Wildling Attack' card is in pile III, there will be 2 attacks (although the second attack will be 0 and so requires no tokens other than potential bonus bidding)

question; the rulebook states that any surplus wildling icons are ignored (i.e. if on 10 and there are two cards with an icon, then the track moves to 12 to trigger the attack but the second one is not rolled over or anything). So the question I have is:

- Wildling Marker on 10
- Westeros I, wildling icon
- Westeros II, winter is coming
- Westeros III, wildling icon

2 icons, the wildling track is moved to 12 (2nd icon ignored), wildling attack is resolved, Westeros I is resolved, and then the 'winter is coming' reshuffle reveals a Wildling Icon. In this case is the marker moved to 2, or is it still ignored as a surplus icon due to the attack being triggered?

3 
 Thumb up
5.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris K.
Germany
Berlin
Berlin
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Microbadge: Eclipse fanMicrobadge: Let's play by these rules - the ones actually in the rulebookMicrobadge: Rules LawyerMicrobadge: Safe, Sane, ConsensualMicrobadge: Polyamorous
First of all, the second attack is only with 0 if the nightwatch won. Otherwise the second attack is with 8 (IIRC).

Second for your example:
Since this is well after resolving the first attack I would say that yes, that wildling icon would be resolved. However I would doublecheck on the rulebook and currently the ffg page refuses to give me the download ;-)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
roftie
Germany
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Don't forget to read the summary at the end of the rulebook containing details about the Westeros cards. There are some rules sprinkled in there that don't appear in the main text.

Under the "Winter is Coming" card description, it states that after one has shuffled the deck, the newly drawn card (including wildling icon) is resolved. That would mean that the wildling marker is moved forward.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Hutton
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
a-ha, I had just looked at the rules and saw the quote on Page 7 about the Wildling Attack Track and thought that it meant the new icon would be ignored...didn't even think to look at the summary

that'll teach me - damn there's a lot to take on board. I'm actually in way over my head...I played it once with some mates away for a weekend, immediately bought it and have now introduced it to my circle at home...none of whom had played it before. This makes me the most experienced player so am faced with trying to explain it to them whilst still learning myself!

help is massively appreicated - thanks
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris K.
Germany
Berlin
Berlin
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Microbadge: Eclipse fanMicrobadge: Let's play by these rules - the ones actually in the rulebookMicrobadge: Rules LawyerMicrobadge: Safe, Sane, ConsensualMicrobadge: Polyamorous
pin316 wrote:
a-ha, I had just looked at the rules and saw the quote on Page 7 about the Wildling Attack Track and thought that it meant the new icon would be ignored...didn't even think to look at the summary

that'll teach me - damn there's a lot to take on board. I'm actually in way over my head...I played it once with some mates away for a weekend, immediately bought it and have now introduced it to my circle at home...none of whom had played it before. This makes me the most experienced player so am faced with trying to explain it to them whilst still learning myself!

help is massively appreicated - thanks
Don't worry about it. Generally an FFG Game has the following learning curve:

Read Rules.
Explain game.
Play game.
Reread Rules and realize that you played half the game wrong.
Explain errors from last time.
Play game.
Reread Rules and realize you still played stuff wron.
Explain errors and misunderstandings from last game.
Play game more or less right for the first time.

BUT, the games are usually worth it and you are generally already having fun during those first games.

Also generally a lot of the "Balance issues" that one finds in the first few games are mostly results of getting rules not quite right and soon you realize that you have a rather well balanced asymetrical game (provided that Greyjoy and Lannister realize that them fighting one another from the get go just makes everyone else happy ;-) )
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dekkah Pytheur
msg tools
roftie wrote:
Don't forget to read the summary at the end of the rulebook containing details about the Westeros cards. There are some rules sprinkled in there that don't appear in the main text.

Under the "Winter is Coming" card description, it states that after one has shuffled the deck, the newly drawn card (including wildling icon) is resolved. That would mean that the wildling marker is moved forward.
Are you sure about that Roftie?

If you read the rules, Advancing the Windling Icon is not part of either 2 - revealing nor 4 - resolving a card, but have its own sequence (3 - Advancing the Windlings).

So once you are resolving the winter is coming card (no matter which pile), you are at the 4 - resolving part. I dont beleive you should count any windling icons that can result from that reshuffle, as the phase for that is already done.

An other common mistake that I see a lot from people do either on vassal or PBP (the OP doesnt do that in his explanation though), is that they reshuffle the winter is coming as they reveal it (their common arguments is that it say "IMMEDIATLY" in winter is coming text), and end up counting the new card icon as well since they place the new card before they count windlings. While I get that the "immediatly" may look confusing, most people dont realise that doing that make them completly overloook/ignore the last part of Winter is coming card "resolve it", which would imply that they need to resolve it before counting windlings icon and even before the resolve phase, since you need to completly resolve a card text before doing anything else.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Radosław Michalak
Poland
Bytom
flag msg tools
Gaming is for having fun. Fun requires clear rules.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just sent question to FFG
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Radosław Michalak
Poland
Bytom
flag msg tools
Gaming is for having fun. Fun requires clear rules.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Incidentally, the step for counting and advancing the Wildling threat token has passed. Thus, you only resolve the text on the new Westeros card drawn, not the Wildling icons.

Jason Walden
Game Producer
Fantasy Flight Games
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
dypaca
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: 5 Year Geek VeteranMicrobadge: Isle of Skye: From Chieftain to King fanMicrobadge: Spirit Island fanMicrobadge: I play with green!Microbadge: Gunnerkrigg Court fan
Interesting. While that answer is in line with a strict reading of the rulebook, their reference sheet:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/1473445/a-game-of-thrones...
says just the opposite.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Radosław Michalak
Poland
Bytom
flag msg tools
Gaming is for having fun. Fun requires clear rules.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dypaca wrote:
Interesting. While that answer is in line with a strict reading of the rulebook, their reference sheet:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/1473445/a-game-of-thrones...
says just the opposite.
What is the source of this sheet?
We have similar in Polish rulebook, but without Wildling icon part.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Amin
Canada
flag msg tools
http://podcastoficeandfire.com/
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Radziol wrote:
dypaca wrote:
Interesting. While that answer is in line with a strict reading of the rulebook, their reference sheet:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/1473445/a-game-of-thrones...
says just the opposite.
What is the source of this sheet?
We have similar in Polish rulebook, but without Wildling icon part.
This 2 sided sheet comes with the English language version of the game. The other side is listed there as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dekkah Pytheur
msg tools
That is weird... The online english rules (PDF) on FFG web site doesnt have that section (the westeros card description with some more details), but in the french one I found on the web, it does have those details. But the westeros card text beside "winter is coming" in the french rulebook doesnt say anything about the Windling Icon. That is why I simply refered to the rules of the westeros phase, which separate the windling count and resolve phase. It is no wonder people often disagree on rule... depending on the version/language they read the rules from.

Might be worth it to ask the designers about that (referencing the sheet with contradictive answer). but this isnt the first time I see contractive text/answers from FFG aGOT rules.


REferences
FFG english version
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/agot-bg-2nd-ed...
(if you can read french, the rule book I use - see P. 31)
http://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2013/01/02/agot2-rulebook-fr/agot2...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
roftie
Germany
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I have the German rules (you can check it here), and they explicitly state on the reference page that the newly drawn card (including Wildling icon) is resolved. The only action that can be taken with a Wildling icon is to advance the Wildling Threat token.

As far as I understand, the reference page for the Westeros cards contains the full definitions of the Westeros cards. The actual text on the cards are just a summary in the end, due to the space restrictions of the cards. Does text of game material (in this case the full definition of a Westeros card) not normally trump general rules?

Consider a similar case regarding resolving Westeros cards. According to this official FFG response, when resolving the Westeros card "Dark Wings, Dark Words" and choosing option b), one does not collect power tokens for ships in ports, even though the reference page clearly states that one does. In the German edition of the game, however, both the description on the card, as well as on the reference page in the rulebook, explicitly state that one does get power tokens for ships in ports.

In the above case regarding "Dark Wings, Dark Words", there is no contradiction or omission in the German rules. Either the official FFG response to it is false, or there are different official rules for different language editions. Since there have already been several cases where official FFG responses have been corrected after the fact (if you followed this thread), I tend to not take them on blind faith.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dekkah Pytheur
msg tools
You rise good point Roftie.

I am not sure the reference sheet is meant to be the card "Full text". I always seen it as a complimentary explanation on how to resolve them.
It would also possibly explain FFG answer on the rule (if they go with oure card text, ignoring the reference sheet (it at least explain Dark wind dark words and this Winter is coming windling answer, since if you go only with card text, you would not gain PTs with ports (as the card isnt Game of thrones) nor move the windling icon on Winter is coming..

The screw up between language rule version doesnt help either(as I said in french there is no mention about windling in "winter is coming" reference). But with the new perspective your telling me, I do see why DWD could work with port (as it sayd in reference that it works like a Game of Throne card).

Out of curiosity, how do you resolve, gaining a Windling Icon with a winter is coming that rise the windling track to 12? I guess it stays to 12 up to next round, since step 3 of Westeros is already gone by where it says :

3. Advance Wildlings Track: Count
the number of Wildling icons on the
three revealed Westeros cards (if any) and
move the Wildling Threat token forward
that many spaces on the Wildlings track.
If, during this step, the Wildling Threat
token reaches position “12”, a Wildling Attack is immediately
resolved (ignore any surplus Wildling icons). Read how to
resolve wildling attacks on page 22.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dekkah Pytheur
msg tools
I found my own answer above in the rules after all.

Page 22, it says that two thing trigger windlings attack ... so with that, simply reaching 12 start a windlings. This is interestingas it make a windling attack possible betwen card 1 and 2 of the westeros .


WildLing Atta cks
In the icy north, an army of barbaric wildlings gather to
descend upon the continent of Westeros. The ancient order of the
Night’s Watch protects the massive Wall that defends against these
(and even more insidious) dangers. Yet the strength of the Night’s
Watch will fail without the support of the great Houses.
In A Game of Thrones: the Board Game there are two events
during the Westeros Phase which cause the wildlings to attack.
They are:
ɇɇThe Wildling Threat token reaches “12” on the Wildling track
ɇɇA “Wildling Attack” Westeros card is drawn and resolved
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrei Stoica
Romania
Bucharest
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I just read the rules in Romanian and it clearly says

" Resolve the card, including the wilding icons "

And on the Dark Wings, Dark Words it also says to collect power tokens from ships in port, if there is no enemy ship in the adjacent sea.

So does this mean FFG are contradicting themselves? What is the correct rule?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dekkah Pytheur
msg tools
I guess it might be worth it to ask FFG again, mentionning these references to see what they actually say about it.

I'll send a question to FFG.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dekkah Pytheur
msg tools
I submitted this question/problem to FFG (via e-mail).
Awaiting the answer (here was my question).

---------------
Hello,
I'd first want to say that I really appreciate being able to get answers to ruling questions and the following questions are in no mean meant to complain or belittle your work here, but simply to get understand and clarify contradictive rule text and answers received.

A question have been submitted (not by me though) lately if one should count and advance the windling icon of the new card drawn after "Winter is Coming". That quesiton was asked mostly because the Step 3 where you count the windlings icons in the westeros phase is already gone by the time you draw the new card.

We got this answer :
-----------------------
Incidentally, the step for counting and advancing the Wildling threat token has passed. Thus, you only resolve the text on the new Westeros card drawn, not the Wildling icons.

Jason Walden
Game Producer
Fantasy Flight Games
-----------------------

I was actually fine with this answer myself as I had no other indication they should be accounted for in my own rulebook and westeros reference sheet (I have the french rules).

The complication comes when some people started to say this was contratictive with the rules they have. In other languages (English and German), it seem that in the refrence sheet where they explain the Westeros cards in does say the Windling icon must be accounted for, while in the French and Polish version, it isnt mentionned at all.

See the link bellow as exemple .
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/1473445/a-game-of-thrones...

On the same note, an official answer given to the question : Does having a ship in port (with adjacent sea free of enemies) should generate 1 power with "Dark Winds, Dark Words" option 2 (collect Powers). The official answer that have been given was NO, but then again, the reference sheet contradict it (in that case, even my french reference sheet goes against that official ruling, saying port should counts)

So my question are :
1 - Should we use or disregard the westeros reference sheet included with the game?

2 - Assuming we should use the reference sheet, which version is right for the Winter is coming? (Should we advance Windling if the new card have an icon as mentionned in english version or not)

3 - Asuming we should use the reference sheet, can you confirm that we should count port for "Dark Wind, Dark Word" option 2 card, (with respect the "Trade with the Free Cities" rules of course)?

Thanks for you time and reply.
Have a nice day.
Richard
4 
 Thumb up
1.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dekkah Pytheur
msg tools
Here is the FFG official answer to my questions above

--------------------------
-------------------
Richard,


The contradictory rulings found on the reference sheet are incorrect. This is a good catch on your part.


I do though sincerely apologize for the confusion. It was certainly not our intent to provide contradictory rulings and we will be sure to include clarification on the next version of our posted FAQ.


For future reference, be aware that there is a hierarchy when it comes to confirming contradictory rules. The primary sources for official rulings should be consulted in this hierarchy, with the higher-ranked sources consulted and trusted before and instead of the others:


1. The FAQ.
2. The official Rules Questions email (which you are using now), in order of date provided.
3. The printed components and rules.


Once an answer is found in one of the high-ranked sources, any answers given in sources lower than that source are immediately obsolete. On very rare occasions, a ruling will change from the answer given via Rules Questions email to the FAQ. Until there is an updated FAQ, continue relying on the latest email answers.


To answer your specific questions:


1) We fully intend for the reference sheet to be a useful tool for this game. However, as you have pointed out, there are errors. I will look into providing a new printable version of the reference sheet to post online, including updated content for all the expansions.


2) The answer I provided in my previous email is still correct. The step for advancing the Wildlings has passed, thus the icon on the new card is ignored.


3) The official answer to this is also correct. No, you do not generate power from ports when Dark Wings, Dark Words is resolved.


Hope that helps. Always feel free to email me. I will do what I can to make your game a more enjoyable experience.

Jason Walden
Game Producer
Fantasy Flight Games
www.fantasyflightgames.com
jwalden@fantasyflightgames.com
--------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------

So I guess this explain why some of their answer does not fit with the reference sheet.
4 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Hutton
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is completely awesome

As mentioned elsewhere, I am very new to the forum having just returned from overseas and found a lot of my friends into the game scene (which was a brilliant surprise btw)

to have this amount of follow-up to a question is mind-boggling - I can tell i'm going to enjoy getting to know this community more

it's pretty cool that a question I posted turned out to lead to a positive development/correction for something that I enjoy so much too...am glad that I could contribute, however small

thanks everyone!
1 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Amin
Canada
flag msg tools
http://podcastoficeandfire.com/
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dekkah wrote:


3) The official answer to this is also correct. No, you do not generate power from ports when Dark Wings, Dark Words is resolved.

So I guess this explain why some of their answer does not fit with the reference sheet.
And the list of custom house rules my playing group plays with just grew by one entry I prefer to collect power from ports in this situation.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
dypaca
United States
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: 5 Year Geek VeteranMicrobadge: Isle of Skye: From Chieftain to King fanMicrobadge: Spirit Island fanMicrobadge: I play with green!Microbadge: Gunnerkrigg Court fan
Plus two more changes from 1st edition. We'll find them all eventually.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls