Recommend
15 
 Thumb up
 Hide
62 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Dominion» Forums » General

Subject: Complete Dominion Companion rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Derek Whaley
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Darius I – 73rd Great Khan of the Illustrius Barbarian Horde, Duque San Lorenzo, Marquis de Feltón, Chief of the Zayante, Baron von Whaleyland, Lord Kennedy
badge
Arrgh!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
With the release of Dominion: Guilds, it is about time that my ongoing Dominion Complete Annotated Rules (CAR) (recently updated to include Dominion: Guilds) gets upgraded into The Complete Dominion Companion, a cleaned up, publication-worthy tome of Dominion knowledge.

There will be two versions of the CDC: one for publishing or computer-only use, and one for home printing. The two will be identical except the former will have color borders, dividers, and other features while the home printing version will be black-and-white with no borders.

Here is a preview of a page from the publication version:



It still is rather simple, and may get enhanced a bit more before the end, but the borders reflect those from the Dominion box covers while the fonts have been cleaned up and the formatting completely standardized. Also, the borders will be different Dominion-oriented colors in each section to help with scanning.

In addition, there will be other changes to the old Annotated Rules:
* A new beautiful cover will be included showcasing the cover art rather than the covers themselves;
* "Section 10: Game History" will be removed with the intent to later add a second volume to the CDC which will include the entire "Bible of Donald X" from Dominion Strategy's forum;
* All card names will be hotlinked regardless of where they are located;
* More charts from the rules and custom-made will be included to assist players;
* An author gallery will be added to the "Index by Author", showing photos of most of the authors;
* An expansion gallery will be added showing the box art and presenting the expansion information in a new and helpful way;
* And many more fixes and cleanup!

This will be big but I do need help. I currently need somebody to render art-only captures of all the cover art from the 8 US box covers and the German Dominion-Intrigue combo art. I already have art extracted for the Base Games expansion but not all of the other covers have been rendered as borderless, textless art. This also needs to be as high of a resolution as possible to enable proper cropping and so I can use the art also in my player aides.

Other than that, I think (hope) that I can handle the rest myself. Keep editing the current edition of the CAR (linked above) as that text is still what is going to be used. It has been vetted heavily over the past two years so I don't want to undermine that.

Thanks for all your support! This is the final stretch of the Complete Dominion Companion and the final edition should be beautiful!
15 
 Thumb up
3.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Whaley
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Darius I – 73rd Great Khan of the Illustrius Barbarian Horde, Duque San Lorenzo, Marquis de Feltón, Chief of the Zayante, Baron von Whaleyland, Lord Kennedy
badge
Arrgh!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just an update, I'm experimenting with formatting and the example above is no longer quite accurate. After careful decision, I've come to the conclusion that the card TYPE is too bold compared to the card NAME. Thus I am removing it as an emphasized feature and placing it immediately under the title of the card as "Type: [Treasure]". The footnote and expansion icons are now directly beside the card name which is bold and emphasized above the text.

I also am turning the entire document into columns, including the rules, except where such is not possible due to images. This saves a little bit of space and generally makes for a cleaner look, I feel. Dividers like that above will be placed throughout to separate columns when I feel it is necessary. Finally, all text has been pushed to the left, except where I feel it is more confusing to do so (such as with "Notes" and other asides). Again, this was done primarily to save on space, since justifying right 0.25" takes up quite a bit!

Thus far, the Hi-Resolution full-color version of the document is passing 20 MB and I've only completed "Preparation", "Reading a Card", and "Basic Cards", so this will be quite a large file, to be sure. I'll continue to update you all on its progress if anything significant has changed. Feel free to give me your comments, suggestions, or critiques to help me make this the best Dominion rules document available.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Whaley
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Darius I – 73rd Great Khan of the Illustrius Barbarian Horde, Duque San Lorenzo, Marquis de Feltón, Chief of the Zayante, Baron von Whaleyland, Lord Kennedy
badge
Arrgh!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
After much design work and quite a bit of thought, I've decided that a simpler cover is best for The Complete Dominion Companion. This is my proposed cover, and honestly I quite like most of it, though I am sure there are things that could use improvement:



The new cover uses the Base Cards expansion for the art and one of my favorite fonts for the added details. The logo is the German version, which I honestly prefer over the Rio Grande version. The logo itself is from the base game while the color of the added text above and below (the red) matches roughly the color of Intrique's lettering.

I've also used the inspiration of the German logo to add a faintly beige background to the deluxe-edition pages. Here is a copy of my current draft for the first page of the Basic Cards section, the format for which is replicated throughout the document for Kingdom Cards and Non-Supply Cards as well.


As with before, I really need input on this project and I haven't been getting much of it. Please provide me with any formatting suggestions or corrections. I've reworked aspects of the card summaries and FAQs, although I'm not sure why in the sample above the aspects of the cards are so indented. I'll have to check that later. In any case, please give me your feedback one way or another now so I don't have to go back and correct each and every card again later.

Thanks for all the help. Your contribution to this project as a whole is noted right there on the cover.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Whaley
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Darius I – 73rd Great Khan of the Illustrius Barbarian Horde, Duque San Lorenzo, Marquis de Feltón, Chief of the Zayante, Baron von Whaleyland, Lord Kennedy
badge
Arrgh!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
After some discussion with a BGG member, I decided to test out a sample of the Basic Cards first page with small images of the cards. This will help in clarification when non-English speakers wish to use or adapt the document for their own purposes. The graphics will remain small enough that the can't be used for replication. All of them have also been obtained from online sources.



The main problem with this format is that each card now takes a lot more space than before (Curse got completely dropped from this page in fact due to space constraints). It's benefits are quite obvious, though, since the card descriptions now look stunning, and the document as a whole will be much more colorful.

What's the consensus here? With or without the card art?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Harrison
United States
Fisher
Illinois
flag msg tools
So long ...
badge
... and thanks for all the fish.
Avatar
mb
With!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Schumann
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Since you're asking for opinions, I do not like the color on the page. I think the border looks messy and takes a lot of room.

For printing, I strongly recommend a font with serifs, as they can be read faster. For on-screen, sans-serif is fine, but my preference is still to have serifs.

My preference is not to have card art, or to move that to an appendix. As you said, it takes room and adds pages. Since the document is in English, its primary audience is English speakers, so having card art included for those whose primary language isn't English is of questionable utility.

I do know that "pretty is pretty important," but I also like to think of how the document is to be used. While it can be read for pleasure, I think its best use is as a go-to reference while setting up and playing. In that case, I'd value a dense, easily-read document that doesn't have a lot of fluff. (So I'd move the footnotes to become endnotes too... perhaps also in an appendix.)

You should have an editor go over it too.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Whaley
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Darius I – 73rd Great Khan of the Illustrius Barbarian Horde, Duque San Lorenzo, Marquis de Feltón, Chief of the Zayante, Baron von Whaleyland, Lord Kennedy
badge
Arrgh!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hey Whizkid, thanks for the input. I actually got a specific request regarding the images for other language users, but I do agree with you. However, some of your other issues are actually not issues. The border, for instance, doesn't take up any more space than my original formatting. In fact, the borders are 0.2 inches closer to the edges now than they were before. For editing, this will actually be the eleventh version of a file that dates back to 2011(?). It's been heavily edited over the years and most of the content is directly copied or transcribed from the original rules. However, feel free to provide corrections and I will take them into account. I have, I believe, around 25 people who have contributed editorial advice for this document thus far and I am always willing to add more.

For the footnotes, those are staying. I decided quite a while ago that they wouldn't be leaving. They provide history and context for the cards, something that occasionally is needed. As a historian by trade, end notes have never been my thing. That being said, I suddenly think I prefer the images more simply because of what you said. The cards are perhaps more easily identified by their images on a page than their names (though that is also, obviously, required). Having images throughout the document would help in scanning for a certain card.

Appendices in general are being reorganized or removed from this document, the "History of Dominion" section especially. Those will go into a secondary document that will arrive after the simple printer version of this is completed. Things like the Sets of 10 and Indexes will remain, however.

Regarding serifs, over ten drafts of this document and nobody has mentioned it either way. I will draft up a sample of the Basic Cards page with serif fonts to see what you think.

That all being said, perhaps you will prefer to use the simple printer version that I'm planning to adapt after this version is completed. If you generally prefer the current version 2.7 file of the Complete Annotated Rules, the new black and white version will be similar with no color at all.

Thanks for the input. I'll try to have a serif sample up later today.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Schumann
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for your thorough and thoughtful reply, and another thank you for your work on the project.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Whaley
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Darius I – 73rd Great Khan of the Illustrius Barbarian Horde, Duque San Lorenzo, Marquis de Feltón, Chief of the Zayante, Baron von Whaleyland, Lord Kennedy
badge
Arrgh!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Okay, here's the sample you requested with serifs.



I don't really mind the text section for this, but I'm definitely not a fan of the serif footnotes. They seem more crammed and harder to read. I used Book Antigua for the front. Times New Roman looked more crammed than I preferred. I tried switching Helvetica Neue (the text font I have been using) to the title, but it looked bad so I switched Bookman to Bookman Extra Bold. I also upped the size of all the fonts by 1 point, and the card names 2 points.

This little exercise has shown which expansion icons still need to be switched over because a few have white backgrounds still. I'll have to track down the Base Cards icon I used since I can't seem to find the original of that and I didn't make the original transparent. Silly me!

So, what's the opinion? Serif or sans-Serif? For the titles? For the text? For the footnotes? I need input, people! cool
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Harrison
United States
Fisher
Illinois
flag msg tools
So long ...
badge
... and thanks for all the fish.
Avatar
mb
With serifs, without a doubt.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Whaley
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Darius I – 73rd Great Khan of the Illustrius Barbarian Horde, Duque San Lorenzo, Marquis de Feltón, Chief of the Zayante, Baron von Whaleyland, Lord Kennedy
badge
Arrgh!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's one vote in. Oh, and HuginnGreilling, since you like the card art, I should add that if I keep it, I'm going to go back and paragraph justify the card descriptions again. I was going to drop that, but the art will now frame the justification much better than before.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
DuckOfDeath V
United States
Hillsboro
OR
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like the serifs, too.

For the card images, could you just make them a bit smaller to save space, or at least cut in half the larger images (like copper) to match the smaller size? I like it with images.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Schumann
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Whaleyland wrote:
So, what's the opinion? Serif or sans-Serif? For the titles? For the text? For the footnotes? I need input, people! cool

Serifs all around for me.

One thing to note about your footnotes. Long lines of text are harder to read. There are a few ways to help with that. First is to shorten the lines, or basically have two columns of footnotes. The second way is to increase the line spacing. That makes it easier for your eyes to track the skip to the next line. I agree that it looks like a big pile of words right now. I love the content in them, though.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erik vd S
Netherlands
Groningen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Serifs! It just makes it more readable.

And a thought about footnotes. I like the contents a lot. But i agree with whizkid, it looks a bit 'crowded'.

To make it more readable, his suggestions makes sense. Besides, i find that the footnotes actually are a bit more then just plain 'footnotes'.
In this document the footnotes are actually telling the story. So one could argue that they should be treated more as 'normal text'. And by that i mean larger fontsize, lineheigth.

But i do realize that by including artwork and enlarging fontsize/lineheight (and even shorten the lines) it will make it more readable, but it also makes the document that much larger.

But my feeling is that the footnotes are less readable then the should be! They deserve better ;-)

I would also make the footer smaller in fontsize, loose the word 'page' before the pagenumber, make the border smaller and use a regular A4-size paper (210x297 mm).

Erik
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Whaley
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Darius I – 73rd Great Khan of the Illustrius Barbarian Horde, Duque San Lorenzo, Marquis de Feltón, Chief of the Zayante, Baron von Whaleyland, Lord Kennedy
badge
Arrgh!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well looks like the tide has completely gone over to Serifs, so that will be happening. Regarding footnotes, I won't be making them full font size but I can make them a bit larger and separate them a bit more. I actually had them separated in an earlier version and removed the feature. Unfortunately, I can't make them into columns. My word processor doesn't allow it.

I can reduce the footprint of the footer but not by too much. I doesn't take my space, though. Also, the paper is "regular", just not for Europe. It's a normal 8-1/2" by 11" sized-paper which is the most common in the US. Since this is primarily for an English-speaking market, and that market is dominated (though not exclusive) by Americans (and Canadians), I'm going to have to stick with my current size. I could maybe try making an A4 version later, but it's not a priority.

That being said, I'll push the borders a bit more and remove "Page" from the page numbers.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erik vd S
Netherlands
Groningen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If there isn't any legal obligation, then i would remove the copyright from the bottom of the page and state it in the beginning of the document.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erik vd S
Netherlands
Groningen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Just fiddling around in Indesign...
Normal text is 11/13
The footnotes are 10/14
Cards are 0,804 in x 1,2402 in (20.4mm x 31.5 mm)

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Urso
United States
Vero Beach
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
The cover and updated content pages look amazing!
However,I am a fan of sans-serif.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Urso
United States
Vero Beach
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Will the final version be spec. for publishing say on blurb at the 8"x10" size. And/or will you be uploading it to another online publisher so that it can easily be purchased as a bound book?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Doughty
United States
California
flag msg tools
OVERTEXT HERE
badge
Funded by supporters like you!
Avatar
mb
I definitely prefer the look of the full card image over the partial, picture only images.

I think I would prefer to see the original card images for the basic cards over the new art as most of the available sources for the basic cards will have those images. I think this will make it a more reliable reference.

It might me worth trying the images on the left of the text. This way they would be like large colorful bullet points
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott VM
Canada
Langley
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm very excited about this and looking forward to printing a finished hard-copy of the complete rules. I definitely want to help make this happen in any way that I can, even if it's just by chiming in with my two cents. In that regard, I'll touch briefly on the points that have already been covered:

The list of additions looks good. I wish that I played this game more so that I would have some ideas of what would be helpful to add. I like the formatting changes that Derek mentioned in the second post.

I like the new cover image, and I think trying to tie everything together would have been too difficult. We've been down that road on the Carcassonne Complete Annotated Rules and I still don't feel that we've arrived at something which can be considered final.

Whizkid mentioned that he didn't like the borders on the pages. I really like them, and it will look spiffy with each section having a different color.

Regarding card images, I think they help to ease the monotony of page after page of text. However, I do like the look of the shorter images better than the taller images. Shorter images could also allow the name of the original illustrator to stay on one line rather than wrap to the next line. I also prefer the images to be floating right of the text rather than left as Bryan suggested. I fear that floating them left would look awkward. Erik's full-card images are giving me a headache; the text on the card is very small and redundant because all the information is already in the text of the document. Just the images from the cards is much nicer.

Regarding typeface, it is often quoted that serifs are supposed to be easier to read in print than sans-serifs, though the research to support this is questionable. However, I do prefer the serif version of Derek's example over the original sans-serif. I would definitely argue for changing the typeface of the section titles - Bookman Extra Bold is a bit too stretched for my liking - perhaps a modern serif, such as Bodoni, rather than a slab serif.

I'd also like to see a different typeface for the header and footer. At the very least, a grotesque rather than the neo-grotesque/transitional sans-serif which is currently being used. Perhaps even a transitional or modern serif.

Footnotes are definitely better than endnotes in this case. Endnotes are better for citing sources, which are less important when you're trying to read the text of the document. Footnotes are better for additional information where it makes more sense to read it while you read the document. However, it may be worth using a sans-serif typeface for the footnotes; I think it's undisputed that sans-serif typefaces are easier to read at small sizes.

I prefer the look of the footnotes spanning the entire page, rather than having them in columns as in Erik's example, but I'm not opposed to the idea if the majority prefers two columns. All I ask is that the small separator line between main text and footnotes be maintained. (I also like Derek's column separator graphic, which Erik has omitted.)
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erik vd S
Netherlands
Groningen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
My 'fiddling'-around, is nothing more then some kind of 'wireframing'. By no means it's a thought-out design. There are some caveats in mine and Dereks design.

When viewing Dereks design, some things caught my eye.
The use of many type-sizes and weights, the use of different indentations, the width of the footnotes and the lack of some kind of graphical 'enlightenment' ;-)

All together i gave me the impression of a bit of graphical imbalance. The big bold title on top and the small print in the end, with an indented text in the middle. For my eyes, it made to text a bit hard to follow.

So i decided to remove as much elements as possible, and see what would result. And i agree, some things can be improved.

I removed the big bold title, since it was already in the header.
I placed thumbnail images, agreed, to small. But bigger meant a larger document, and since i don't know if Derek wants to keep the size down, i decided to use some kind of thumbnail. But, i made them a bit larger, with an old one on top, so you can see the difference.
I prefer the whole image. I don't like cutting up the cards. The whole game is about cards. Besides, it'll be hell of a job to cut them all up.
One could also make this text-only and place the cards, bigger, at the end of the chapter.
Images now are 1,0452 in x 1,6122 in (26,548 mm x 40,95 mm).


Regarding the footnotes. The way i see it, when they are so small and spanning the entire page, it'll be hard to read. I saw no other option then to divide it in 2 columns. Not a perfect solution, but it makes it easier to read.

I omitted the separators because i found them attracting to much attention and thought that it was clear that there were 2 columns. But, i put them in again!

And again, my fiddling around is just to see if some things work or don't work. And, for me, it works best to see it in front of me...

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Whaley
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Darius I – 73rd Great Khan of the Illustrius Barbarian Horde, Duque San Lorenzo, Marquis de Feltón, Chief of the Zayante, Baron von Whaleyland, Lord Kennedy
badge
Arrgh!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There are some things I like in your sample, caviafrits, but there is much I'm not a fan of, to be honest. First of all, columned footnotes are not an option to me. I'm not using InDesign. I actually tried to use it early on in the project (i.e., three years ago) and found that simply using Apple iWork's Pages word processor worked a lot better for me. Yes, it has limitations, but it specializes in formatting with images, which is something I wanted. I also wanted (and still want) to keep the editing easy, and using a full-fledged publisher program was just not going to do that for me. In other words, columned footnotes are out, and I still don't really like them. The break provided by a full-width line of footnotes is clear whereas in your sample above, only the line divides them and it simply isn't clear enough for me. I may, though, adopt your horizontal line in some fashion as a divider for the bottom because I only realized now that a silly little 1pt font line currently sits above the footnote line.

The imbalance you speak of regarding the font sizes and types is noted, however it is extremely common in many things and I see it as a natural transition from IMPORTANT to unimportant. The title that you removed only appears on the first page of a section, which my sample above is a representation of. It does not appear on subsequent pages and the header, as you note, fulfills the purpose of explaining the page adequately thereafter. The only reason I keep it on the first page is to help guide people who are reading through the document to inform them that the subject has changed. In most cases, it will be useless and redundant, but I still find it necessary for decorum, if nothing else.

Still, I have been trying to keep consistent with titles and headers throughout. I think I will adopt the traditional Sans-Serif for headers and Serif for content. Content will be 11pt font and footnotes 9pt. Section headers will be 17pt, subsections 15pt, and sub-subsection (individual rules) and card titles in 13pt. That will be standardized throughout the document to remain consistent. Perhaps this will satisfy. We'll have to see.

Lastly, the images. I'm in agreement with vandesc that the content of the cards are in the content of the page and including an image of the entire card serves little purpose since it cannot be read and the images is almost too small to recognize. Using only the card art without the framing and text box will both look more aesthetically pleasing and help in people scanning the document for a specific card. Editing the cards is actually easier here than with using the full cards since most online versions of the full cards will require cropping and the reintroduction of a rounded border, whereas using simply the card art can be done quickly by just cutting, pasting, and using a preconfigured border. I can, though use the original basic card art rather than the Base Card expansion's art for this section. That is an easy correction, though I do love the Base Card art. I will not put these at the end of the booklet, though, because I just don't see what purpose that will have for anybody.

I'll draft up a new version of this (or perhaps a different) page with my proposed changes. We'll see how they look. I will also make a version of with the card art only and with the cards and see which people prefer. Perhaps I'll even add a poll to discuss the options.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pawel Pawlak
Poland
near Poznań
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maybe you can consider formatting values like this:

instead of "Value: 1 Coin". It's easy with my Dominion Symbols font
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Whaley
New Zealand
Christchurch
flag msg tools
Darius I – 73rd Great Khan of the Illustrius Barbarian Horde, Duque San Lorenzo, Marquis de Feltón, Chief of the Zayante, Baron von Whaleyland, Lord Kennedy
badge
Arrgh!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have thought about that m_knox, I just haven't decided for sure yet. It would take a lot of editing to implement that.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.