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Combat Commander: Pacific» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rule T 89.4 hills and obstacles rss

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David Levy
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Let's say there is a unit on a level 2 hill wanting to fire on a unit at ground level. There is an intervening jungle hex at level one but it is somewhere in the middle between the two units so the blind hex rule is not an issue. In this case the rule seems clear that the LOS is clear.

Now same facts but the defending unit is on a level one hill and again no blind hex issue. Now the rule says that LOS is blocked. This seems like a surprising result but is what the rule says, I think.

Do I have this correct, or should one only look to the higher of the two hills to determine if an intervening obstacle is blocking?

I assume the same logic applies to hindrances in rule T89.5?
 
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John McLintock
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coalie wrote:
Let's say there is a unit on a level 2 hill wanting to fire on a unit at ground level. There is an intervening jungle hex at level one but it is somewhere in the middle between the two units so the blind hex rule is not an issue. In this case the rule seems clear that the LOS is clear.

Now same facts but the defending unit is on a level one hill and again no blind hex issue. Now the rule says that LOS is blocked. This seems like a surprising result but is what the rule says, I think.

Do I have this correct, or should one only look to the higher of the two hills to determine if an intervening obstacle is blocking?

I assume the same logic applies to hindrances in rule T89.5?

CCP Rules wrote:
T89.4 Hills & Obstacles
The LOS to or from a hill hex is blocked only if it clearly touches any part of the physical depiction of an Obstacle at the same or higher level as that hill hex. In other words, LOS to or from a hill hex is not blocked by Obstacles that lie at a lower level (exception: see Blind Hexes, below).

Barring blind hexes, an obstacle at level 1 doesn't block LOS between a unit at level 2 and another unit at level 1 (or any other lower level).

CCP Rules wrote:
T89.5 Hills & Hindrances
Any mapboard Hindrance terrain at a lower level does not hinder LOS to or from a hill hex.

Hindrances are ignored in LOS between hexes at different levels.

Hope that all makes sense.
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Richard Pardoe
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coalie wrote:
Let's say there is a unit on a level 2 hill wanting to fire on a unit at ground level.

Remember it can't be anywhere on that level 2 hill, it must be at the crest hex of that level 2 hill.

Quote:
There is an intervening jungle hex at level one but it is somewhere in the middle between the two units so the blind hex rule is not an issue. In this case the rule seems clear that the LOS is clear.

Correct

Quote:
Now same facts but the defending unit is on a level one hill and again no blind hex issue. Now the rule says that LOS is blocked.

Incorrect, the LOS is still clear.

A couple of examples that are in line with your example:



The LOS is clear in both cases because the LOS to the Level 2 Hill does NOT cross an obstacle or hindrance at the same (or higher) elevation than the level 2 hex.
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David Levy
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Thanks....your answer makes sense, but in my second case it seems to me that a literal reading of the rule "to or from a hill hex" gives a blocked result because the LOS in question is "to" a unit on a level one hill and thus blocked by the level one obstacle. Shoudn't the rule say instead that if both units are on hills then the obstacle test applies against the unit on the higher hill level?
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John McLintock
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coalie wrote:
Thanks....your answer makes sense, but in my second case it seems to me that a literal reading of the rule "to or from a hill hex" gives a blocked result because the LOS in question is "to" a unit on a level one hill and thus blocked by the level one obstacle. Shoudn't the rule say instead that if both units are on hills then the obstacle test applies against the unit on the higher hill level?

I don't really understand your confusion David, although it makes me think you're coming at this from the POV of an ASL player. The rule in CC is simple enough: any degree of height advantage sees over all obstacles; that is to say- all obstacles are lower than a hill level. This is clear from the text, as rereading T89.4 (and its grey box) should prove to you. Apologies for merely restating the point, but I'm at a bit of loss how to elaborate on the explanation.
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David Levy
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Thanks for helping The rule says LOS is blocked by an obstacle at the same level. The question is...the same level as what hex...firing or receiving...since it says "to or from" you could interpret this as the receiving hex and get a blocked result in my second case...see my point?

If it says what you underlined I'd see your point but it doesn't.
 
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Mark Buetow
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coalie wrote:
Thanks for helping The rule says LOS is blocked by an obstacle at the same level. The question is...the same level as what hex...firing or receiving...since it says "to or from" you could interpret this as the receiving hex and get a blocked result in my second case...see my point?

If it says what you underlined I'd see your point but it doesn't.


Obstacles in CC do not have a height in addition to or above the level they're on. It's simplified in that respect.

If attacker and defender are on the same level, an obstacle blocks LOS. If they are at a different level, LOS is only blocked in the hex behind the obstacle. That's it.
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Richard Pardoe
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coalie wrote:
If it says what you underlined I'd see your point but it doesn't.

David, continue reading T89.4 where it states:

In other words, LOS to or from a hill hex is not blocked by Obstacles that lie at a lower level elevation.

Finally, please don't forget the third paragraph under 16.1:

LOS is always reciprocal: if unit A can see unit B, then unit B can also see Unit A

I believe you are stating that the Level 1 unit CAN see the Level 2 unit as the LOS to/from the Level 2 hill doesn't encounter an obstacle at Level 2. But by your argument above, you seem to be thinking that the LOS is not reciprocal in this case which by 16.1 it must be.
 
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David Levy
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I think you guys are making this too complicated. I am not concerning this question with crest hexes, blind hexes, or reciprocal LOS. If there is a unit on a level 2 hill looking to fire on a distant unit on a level 1 hill and there is an intervening level 1 obstacle, then the rule says that if firing "to or from" a hill with an obstacle at the same level (in this case level 1) then the LOS is blocked...simple as that.
 
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John McLintock
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coalie wrote:
I think you guys are making this too complicated. I am not concerning this question with crest hexes, blind hexes, or reciprocal LOS. If there is a unit on a level 2 hill looking to fire on a distant unit on a level 1 hill and there is an intervening level 1 obstacle, then the rule says that if firing "to or from" a hill with an obstacle at the same level (in this case level 1) then the LOS is blocked...simple as that.

If you're at level 2 and the obstacle is at level 1, this is not firing ""to or from" a hill with an obstacle at the same level"; it's firing "to or from" a hill with an obstacle at a different level. You are working under the misapprehension that obstacles are 1 level high (hence my reference to ASL). They're not. All obstacles are of a height such that you can see over them from any elevation 1 level higher than the ground level of the obstacle. It really is as simple as that, as thousands of players can testify.
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Mark Buetow
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coalie wrote:
I think you guys are making this too complicated. I am not concerning this question with crest hexes, blind hexes, or reciprocal LOS. If there is a unit on a level 2 hill looking to fire on a distant unit on a level 1 hill and there is an intervening level 1 obstacle, then the rule says that if firing "to or from" a hill with an obstacle at the same level (in this case level 1) then the LOS is blocked...simple as that.


There is no such thing as a "Level 1 obstacle." There are only obstacles that are the same level as the hill/elevation they're on. Make sense?
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David Levy
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okay, i stand corrected, i should have said "an intervening obstacle on a level 1 hill". My bigger point still stands that I the rule clearly says this LOS is blocked.
 
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Richard Pardoe
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coalie wrote:
My bigger point still stands that I the rule clearly says this LOS is blocked.

Then why is no one playing the rule that way?

Let me ask again - does your bigger point say that the Level 1 firing unit at the Level 2 defender when the LOS crosses a Level 1 jungle hex between the two is also blocked?

I am tracing the LOS to/from the Level 2 hill hex and have NOT crossed any obstacle at the same or higher elevation to that Level 2 hex, so per T89.4 it is a clear LOS.

If this LOS is clear (as I believe you will agree), then the reciprocal LOS (tracing the LOS to/from the Level 1 hill hex from the Level 2 hill hex) is also clear per 16.1.

If you state that the reverse LOS is blocked, how do you resolve the conflict with 16.1? You can't interpret a rule by itself, it must be within the context of all the rules of the game so to ignore reciprocal LOS when it clarifies the situation seems a bit short sighted.

One final way of analyzing the rules that might help you. Reread T89. Hills wherein it states:

A unit on a hill is above any terrain occupying a ground-level hex or a hill hex at a lower level.

From this, I conclude that T89.4's statement about the LOS to/from a Hill hex is only referring to unit at the higher elevation. From this point of view, the LOS is also not blocked. The error in your thinking is to try to force the rule to refer to the unit at the lower elevation.
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David Levy
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Uncle. Let me just close the issue by saying that I agree with your interpretation, but that I hope you will agree rule 89.4 could be written more clearly so that the "to or from" is explicitly made to refer to the higher of the two hills in question.
 
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