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Subject: Placing bets after the outcome is assured rss

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Bob Marso
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I read a posting from the maker of this game saying that his original intention was to not allow a person to wager that on a boat that
has already docked since the outcome is assured. I am just curious
when playing the game if I should apply this rule to all cases including:

1) If one boat arrives and is docked after round 2 you cannot make the
4/6 wager betting that at least one boat will dock.

2) Not being able to wager on a boat that arrives on space 13
in round 2 and in the case that there are no pirates.
(I am going by the clarification on another posting that space
13 does assure a successful arrival of the boats after round 3
if no Pirates are present)


3)Not being able to place the 4/6 wager that at least one boat will
dock if example #2 is met because again this boats arrival to port
is assured.


I like this game but just wish the rule book was more clear.

Bob
 
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Justin
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i certainly think that betting on docked boats or the docks that they inhabit is against the spirit of the game.

if a boat is on the 13 at the end of round 2, it is plausible that the pilot(s) could move the boat back before the third roll and it could fail to make it. so i think any "13-related" issues should be allowed.
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I'm interested in this dicussion, because the rules state that during a player's turn, he may place an accomplice in any vacant space. Vacant spaces could include empty positions on docked punts after round 2, or the dock space(s) corresponding to docked punts. This verbiage is contrary to my personal belief that betting on a "sure thing" is against the spirit of the game -- I just can't justify my feeling by reading the rules. Can you provide a link to the game creator's comments?

However, I do not consider a punt on space 13 after two turns and no pirates to be a sure bet due to the possible interference from pilots (as Justin has already mentioned).
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Allen Vailliencourt
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Interesting that this question was just recently raised. Last 2 times we've played a punt has arrived in port with available spaces. Going by the rules we let players place followers on the punts in port. Some argued against it yet the rulebook does state you may place something on any available/vacant space (like what Beowulf said).

It doesn't matter to me either way. If the author says he thinks you shouldn't play on a ported punt then I'll change our rules (my wife will be happy..hehe).

So thoughts anyone?

~V
 
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Andy M
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The rulebook doesn't say that you can't use an accomplice to sink all the boats before they have even started. It doesn't say that if you roll 3 sixes then all the boats are not killed by a giant sea monster. It doesn't say that you can't steal your fellow players money when they are not looking. So go ahead, do all those things if you like - the rule book doesn't specify that you can't!

Just because a rule book does not specify every single rule, it doesn't mean that you can abuse the game.

Ok, so it does say "available space", but surely a boat that has docked is not available.

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Stu Glennie
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This has happened once or twice in games we played and we allowed players to place on the dock after a punt was in.

Why?

Going with the theme of the game (the little guys being workers looking for jobs, etc) - the punt still needs to be unloaded. You don't just let the goods rot on the punt if there is no worker when you dock, you hire a dock worker.

But, I can see that in the spirit of the game, getting a "sure thing" just seems wrong.

Best advice: ask the players for a judgment on a House Rule before you play.
 
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Eric
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astroglide wrote:
i certainly think that betting on docked boats or the docks that they inhabit is against the spirit of the game.

if a boat is on the 13 at the end of round 2, it is plausible that the pilot(s) could move the boat back before the third roll and it could fail to make it. so i think any "13-related" issues should be allowed.


This is my group's view as well and we play accordingly.
 
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Dylan Gould
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astroglide wrote:
i certainly think that betting on docked boats or the docks that they inhabit is against the spirit of the game.

if a boat is on the 13 at the end of round 2, it is plausible that the pilot(s) could move the boat back before the third roll and it could fail to make it. so i think any "13-related" issues should be allowed.


Okay, but what if you're the last to place a worker, and one of those spaces is still unoccupied? At that point, it's a sure thing, so do you make an exception that the last player can't place in those spaces?
 
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Dylan Gould
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moss_icon wrote:
The rulebook doesn't say that you can't use an accomplice to sink all the boats before they have even started. It doesn't say that if you roll 3 sixes then all the boats are not killed by a giant sea monster. It doesn't say that you can't steal your fellow players money when they are not looking. So go ahead, do all those things if you like - the rule book doesn't specify that you can't!

Just because a rule book does not specify every single rule, it doesn't mean that you can abuse the game.

Ok, so it does say "available space", but surely a boat that has docked is not available.



For the record, I agree with the opinion that betting on a sure thing is against the spirit of the game. But I also really wish that the rules said so. Because I think that there's a decent argument that the rules indicate that you can.

It's not just that the rules don't say you can't, but that they first say generally (and emphatically) that you can, and then they don't make a specific exception. They don't say anything about saboteurs or sea monsters or stealing, generally or specifically, so there's no reason to assume that any of these concepts are involved in playing the game. But they do say "any vacant port or shipyard space", with the word 'any' bolded. The word 'space' is used consistently to indicate the circled numbers, and the word 'vacant' is used consistently to describe spaces that aren't occupied by accomplices. Why use the word 'any', why bold the word 'any', if they actually mean "most vacant port or shipyard spaces, with a few exceptions"?

Like I said, I think people shouldn't be allowed to bet on a sure thing. When I teach people the game, when this issue comes up (almost every play of the game), new players invariably ask about it. I tell them that the rules don't say you can't but that I've never encountered anyone who thought you should be able to. I guess I can't say that any more, given this thread. Nevertheless, the fact that new players always ask whether it's okay to place there before doing so -- the fact that they never just assume it's an acceptable move -- doesn't that also provide pretty good evidence that betting on a sure thing in Manila is unfair, or at least inappropriate?
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Daniel Corban
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How often is a "sure thing" worth a lot of points? I mean, unless the three docks have filled completely or something.

I'd be willing to allow someone to grab a "sure thing" spot, since it would usually mean they are making a measly profit, while other locations can still be speculated on by the rest of the players, who will make a larger profit.
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John Hathorn
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If the designer of the game says the rules weren't clear, but that his intention was A, then A becomes a rule as written and is no longer a house rule. At this point, playing without A would be the house rule.
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Alejandro G.
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Sometimes you have to roll the hard six.
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...can you bet on a Horse after the race is over? No.
 
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Michael Frost

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Though it doesn't appear that the rules were updated in the 2014 reprint and those rules appear quite clear that as long as a Port or Shipyard space is available, an accomplice may be put there at any time during the accomplice placing round. So a sure bet most certainly can pay off on the 2nd or 3rd accomplice placing round:

"Port and shipyard spaces: At each port and shipyard space, there is an accomplice place. In addition to the punt placements, players may deploy their accomplices on any vacant port or shipyard space. As with the ware spaces on the punts, a player can deploy several accomplices on port and shipyard spaces, when they are vacant on his turns.

"The goal of this action: to have accomplices on spaces where punts arrive at the end of the voyage so the player can earn the payment shown above the deployment space."

Key words just "where punts arrive at the end of the voyage".

And the ware placement rules for punts shows the clarity by contrast, because in this case you CANNOT place accomplices on punts that have already arrived:

"Punts already docking at the port cannot take any new accomplices."
 
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