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Subject: Dice Tower winners rss

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Matt Brown
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Wargame

1812: The Invasion of Canada

Expansion

Core Worlds: Galactic Orders

Family game
Party game

Love Letter

Art
Theme
Small Publisher

Mice and Mystics

Innovative
New Designer

Space Cadets

Game of the Year
Best Production

X-Wing: Core Set

Nominee list below for reference.

http://www.dicetower.com/dice_tower_awards/2012-awards.html

Source is CSI's product listing for the games. List of the products is here:

http://www.coolstuffinc.com/page/1472
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Fernando Robert Yu
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Congratulations to the winners!
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Richard Ham
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Questions to those who have played it (genuinely curious): would Xwing be considered a winner based solely on the core set alone, with no expansions, or buying extra core sets? Or do you need to buy more than the base set for it to be considered a viable GotY?

Also, what got best reprint?
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David B
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Maybe it's just me but I just don't find Love Letter has enough replay value to be award worthy.
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Baz Hemmons
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rahdo wrote:
Questions to those who have played it (genuinely curious): would Xwing be considered a winner based solely on the core set alone, with no expansions, or buying extra core sets? Or do you need to buy more than the base set for it to be considered a viable GotY?


That's a very good point. It's definitely the later. The core set alone is nothing more than 'ok with potential'. With the expansions it becomes great. Whether that should be a consideration for awards, I don't know. I guess core plus a few expansions costs no more than some games, so it's probably fair enough to consider it all as one.

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William Bowers
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bazpoint wrote:
rahdo wrote:
Questions to those who have played it (genuinely curious): would Xwing be considered a winner based solely on the core set alone, with no expansions, or buying extra core sets? Or do you need to buy more than the base set for it to be considered a viable GotY?


That's a very good point. It's definitely the later. The core set alone is nothing more than 'ok with potential'. With the expansions it becomes great. Whether that should be a consideration for awards, I don't know. I guess core plus a few expansions costs no more than some games, so it's probably fair enough to consider it all as one.


I guess it depends on what you consider "the game." If it is the rule set, then I would say "yes". But miniature games are about the miniatures. I sort of equate it to Warhammer and such. I think the production combined with theme and accessibility of the rules (bringing minature gaming to a broader market) makes it a good candidate.
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Richard Ham
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faustulus wrote:
I guess it depends on what you consider "the game." If it is the rule set, then I would say "yes". But miniature games are about the miniatures. I sort of equate it to Warhammer and such. I think the production combined with theme and accessibility of the rules (bringing minature gaming to a broader market) makes it a good candidate.

I consider 'the game' to be what comes in the box. I wouldn't consider Descent 2nd edition to be what comes in the box, plus a whole bunch of extra expansions I'd have to buy in addition, for example. I wouldn't assume that they evaluated CO2's viability including the limited edition promo cards either... just what's in the box.

I'm asking, btw, because I've completely ignored Xwing up until now, as I assumed if I only picked up the base set, it wouldn't be that great. But to get such a high honor (DT's game of the year!), I'm now thinking about seeking out a copy (or more importantly, a copy of the new Star Trek Attack Wing). But I will not buy any additional ships, period, so it'll be just the 3 starter ships for me.

So, Dice Tower recommends this game with only 3 ships as literally the best, most fun game of 2012 that I can buy. I'm doubting it, hence I figured I'd ask
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William Bowers
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rahdo wrote:
faustulus wrote:
I guess it depends on what you consider "the game." If it is the rule set, then I would say "yes". But miniature games are about the miniatures. I sort of equate it to Warhammer and such. I think the production combined with theme and accessibility of the rules (bringing minature gaming to a broader market) makes it a good candidate.

I consider 'the game' to be what comes in the box. I wouldn't consider Descent 2nd edition to be what comes in the box, plus a whole bunch of extra expansions I'd have to buy in addition, for example. I wouldn't assume the evaluated CO2's viability if you include the limited edition promo cards either... just what's in the box.

I'm asking, btw, because I've completely ignored Xwing up until now, as I assumed if I only picked up the base set, it wouldn't be that great. But to get such a high honor (DT's game of the year!), I'm now thinking about seeking out a copy. But I will not buy any additional ships, period, so it'll be just the 3 starter ships for me.

So, Dice Tower recommends this game with only 3 ships as literally the best, most fun game of 2012 that I can buy. I'm doubting it, hence I figured I'd ask :)

I don't think that criteria works for miniature games (many of which don't have boxes, but rather are simply books of rules). It is sort of a different animal than a board game.
The X-Wing is a starter set, so instead of buying the book and then buying the minis, it combines the two. By itself it is a complete game, but limits the size of the engagements.
I can't say how much fun one base game is because I have always played with two or more. I suspect it would prove limiting after a bit as part of a miniature game is building an army (much like building a deck for the trading card games). And coming from a miniature gaming background I am sorta predisposed to their charms.
I don't think the award is for the starter set. I think the award is for the game, which being a miniature game, includes the miniatures.
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Richard Ham
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faustulus wrote:
I don't think that criteria works for miniature games (many of which don't have boxes, but rather are simply books of rules). It is sort of a different animal than a board game.
The X-Wing is a starter set, so instead of buying the book and then buying the minis, it combines the two. By itself it is a complete game, but limits the size of the engagements.
I can't say how much fun one base game is because I have always played with two or more. I suspect it would prove limiting after a bit as part of a miniature game is building an army (much like building a deck for the trading card games). And coming from a miniature gaming background I am sorta predisposed to their charms.
I don't think the award is for the starter set. I think the award is for the game, which being a miniature game, includes the miniatures.


Interesting. Well, sounds like it's not for us, and the award itself needs a big * footnote added to the winner, which is fine.

See, if Netrunner had won, I would have assumed it was again based on the core set, not the core set + a half dozen mini expansions. And you can get a lot of game out of that core set, so it would make sense. But for Xwing, not so much it seems.

Thanks everybody!
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Matt Brown
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rahdo wrote:
Questions to those who have played it (genuinely curious): would Xwing be considered a winner based solely on the core set alone, with no expansions, or buying extra core sets? Or do you need to buy more than the base set for it to be considered a viable GotY?

Also, what got best reprint?


Reprint doesn't seem to be listed. Odd considering the nominees are all in stock.

In terms of X-Wing, I think it's bull crap it won in the first place even as a framework. Just the core set? shake
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matthean wrote:
rahdo wrote:
Questions to those who have played it (genuinely curious): would Xwing be considered a winner based solely on the core set alone, with no expansions, or buying extra core sets? Or do you need to buy more than the base set for it to be considered a viable GotY?

Also, what got best reprint?


Reprint doesn't seem to be listed. Odd considering the nominees are all in stock.

In terms of X-Wing, I think it's bull crap it won in the first place even as a framework. Just the core set? shake


I imagine that is all more of a matter of being specific than anything else. Note, it also is for best production. As far as core sets of games go, I'd say X-Wing:Core Set is a fine example of great production. There is a lot f game in two or three core sets as well. So there's that.
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I have no issue with the production part. In terms of a core set, Netrunner beats X-Wing badly. The fact that X-Wing needs more core sets is exactly why it shouldn't win Game of the Year.

EDIT: Dice Tower really does need to create a framework/system of the year. I have a lesser issue if it wins there, but X-Wing as a single purchase for the Game of the Year is essentially as laughable as Tom thinks of a number of the Origins winners. Considering his influence in the board gaming community, it feels more sad than anything.
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William Bowers
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As I said earlier, I think the problem comes from the assumption that this catagory was board game of the year. The miniature game doesn't fit neatly in this mold.
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matthean wrote:
I have no issue with the production part. In terms of a core set, Netrunner beats X-Wing badly. The fact that X-Wing needs more core sets is exactly why it shouldn't win Game of the Year.

EDIT: Dice Tower really does need to create a framework/system of the year. I have a lesser issue if it wins there, but X-Wing as a single purchase for the Game of the Year is essentially as laughable as Tom thinks of a number of the Origins winners. Considering his influence in the board gaming community, it feels more sad than anything.


You do realize the Dice Tower awards aren't just Tom's choices right? He's only one of many voices involved.
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faustulus wrote:
As I said earlier, I think the problem comes from the assumption that this catagory was board game of the year. The miniature game doesn't fit neatly in this mold.

Actually, it's an inconsistent set of categories no matter how you slice it. Why do wargames get their own section, but card games don't. Why do party games get one, but not euro games. Etc.

bazpoint wrote:
matthean wrote:
I have no issue with the production part. In terms of a core set, Netrunner beats X-Wing badly. The fact that X-Wing needs more core sets is exactly why it shouldn't win Game of the Year.

EDIT: Dice Tower really does need to create a framework/system of the year. I have a lesser issue if it wins there, but X-Wing as a single purchase for the Game of the Year is essentially as laughable as Tom thinks of a number of the Origins winners. Considering his influence in the board gaming community, it feels more sad than anything.


You do realize the Dice Tower awards aren't just Tom's choices right? He's only one of many voices involved.


Yeah, but Tom still puts his name on these - as the front man for Dice Tower, he's responsible and endorses everything DT puts out, including these awards. So he has to stand by the decision to let base Xwing get nominated as best game.
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rahdo wrote:
faustulus wrote:
As I said earlier, I think the problem comes from the assumption that this catagory was board game of the year. The miniature game doesn't fit neatly in this mold.

Actually, it's an inconsistent set of categories no matter how you slice it. Why do wargames get their own section, but card games don't. Why do party games get one, but not euro games. Etc.

bazpoint wrote:
matthean wrote:
I have no issue with the production part. In terms of a core set, Netrunner beats X-Wing badly. The fact that X-Wing needs more core sets is exactly why it shouldn't win Game of the Year.

EDIT: Dice Tower really does need to create a framework/system of the year. I have a lesser issue if it wins there, but X-Wing as a single purchase for the Game of the Year is essentially as laughable as Tom thinks of a number of the Origins winners. Considering his influence in the board gaming community, it feels more sad than anything.


You do realize the Dice Tower awards aren't just Tom's choices right? He's only one of many voices involved.


Yeah, but Tom still puts his name on these - as the front man for Dice Tower, he's responsible and endorses everything DT puts out, including these awards. So he has to stand by the decision to let base Xwing get nominated as best game.


Yeah, but what's wrong with that... I mean during Academy Award time I generally can't stand ANY of the movies that get nominated and win best picture and think there are hands down far better movies out there. But apparently they aren't me. I mean don't get me wrong Argo was a fantastic movie but there were others that were more worthy of best picture last year than it was.

What I find it all comes down to is often times awards are what are viewed as best by those particular people and in no way indicative of public like or enjoyment. Movie critics are the same way for me. Most movies they like I can't stand, most movies they hate I absolutely love, and when we actually agree I am shocked.
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No matter which game one, someone was going to disagree, such is the nature of awards. They are, by definition, subjective.
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I think the difference here is that nominating Xwing base set is something akin to nominating not Argo, but the trailer for Argo, for best picture - and then having the trailer for Argo win!

Though it's certainly open to debate...
 
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rahdo wrote:
I think the difference here is that nominating Xwing base set is something akin to nominating not Argo, but the trailer for Argo, for best picture - and then having the trailer for Argo win!

Though it's certainly open to debate... :)

But the nomination is for the "X-Wing Miniatures game" not the "X-Wing Miniatures game Core Set." Likewise with Android.
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bazpoint wrote:
You do realize the Dice Tower awards aren't just Tom's choices right? He's only one of many voices involved.


Tom gave X-Wing a 7 as where he gave Mage Wars and Kemet a 9, so I'm not saying he makes the picks. He did however laugh at the winners that Origins have selected and called them terrible and yet the awards that he leads picked X-Wing Core set as the best game of the year. A game that he even mentions at the start of his review as him buying more copies since the core set didn't offer enough. This fact has been repeated by just about everybody. My issue is that a game which isn't apparently even self sufficient enough by itself has zero business being considered Game of the Year.
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faustulus wrote:
rahdo wrote:
I think the difference here is that nominating Xwing base set is something akin to nominating not Argo, but the trailer for Argo, for best picture - and then having the trailer for Argo win!

Though it's certainly open to debate...

But the nomination is for the "X-Wing Miniatures game" not the "X-Wing Miniatures game Core Set." Likewise with Android.


Then make an award for framework or system.
 
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matthean wrote:
faustulus wrote:
rahdo wrote:
I think the difference here is that nominating Xwing base set is something akin to nominating not Argo, but the trailer for Argo, for best picture - and then having the trailer for Argo win!

Though it's certainly open to debate... :)

But the nomination is for the "X-Wing Miniatures game" not the "X-Wing Miniatures game Core Set." Likewise with Android.


Then make an award for framework or system.

That is what a game is.
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rahdo wrote:
I think the difference here is that nominating Xwing base set is something akin to nominating not Argo, but the trailer for Argo, for best picture - and then having the trailer for Argo win!

Though it's certainly open to debate...


More like The Matrix, rather than the whole trilogy, etc.
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Well, so much for these awards being reputable. A miniature game starter pack with 3 miniatures is the best game of the year? Over games like:

Terra Mystica
Lords of Waterdeep
Tzolkin
Clash of Cultures
Seasons
Android Netrunner (a much better core set than offered by X-wing)
Legends of Andor
CO2
Archipelago
Suburbia
Keyflower
Kemet
Space Cadets
Manhatten Project
Myrmes

I hear a lot of complaining from Tom about how bad other awards are, but this isn't much better honestly.
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faustulus wrote:
That is what a game is.


Twilight Struggle is a single purchase so I wouldn't say it is a system or framework that gets added onto. By framework or system, I mean a game that is built from the start to be expanded. To me a Game of the Year is the best game that involves a single purchase.
 
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