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Mage Wars Arena» Forums » Rules

Subject: Nullify + Reverse Magic / Block + Reverse Attack rss

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Gihan B
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Hi

I have scoured the Rules section of this forum and could not find this obvious question.

What happens when you have both Nullify and Reverse Magic on a creature and opponent casts an enchantment or incantation on it?

Ditto both Block and Reverse Attack when attacked.

My interpreation is you can reveal one, pay its cost to action it hence no longer need to reveal the other.

I am hoping this is correct interpretation as otherwise Nullify is pretty easy to ferret out (with a Decoy not a Seeking Dispel that needs to guess with potential Decoys) in which case nothing can be protected from a Dissolve or Dispel. At least this way, you can double stack and reverse the Dissolve/Dispel.

Obviously an unavoidable attack would ferret out both the Block and the Reverse Attack as it is an explicit weakness to no effect (no need to pay for revealing it) so there is no counter to that.

Is my interpretation correct or not?

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Guido Gloor
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My interpretation is that both are triggered, you need to reveal both. You can choose to pay one or both reveal costs. If you pay both reveal costs, you choose the order in which the two resolve.

But I might be mistaken.
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John Guytan
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The person with Initiative decides who goes first.
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Scott Douglass
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You must reveal both, but you can choose to pay for neither, one, or both of the reveal costs. Paying for both reveal costs never makes sense though, since you can't do the effects of both enchantments. Regardless, those enchantments are all going away.
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Guido Gloor
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Saturnineage wrote:
The person with Initiative decides who goes first.

Are you sure? Where in the rules is that?

The rules quotes I found that seem relevant are:

page 6 (on actions) wrote:
The player with the initiative acts first during the Action Stage, and always goes first any time you must determine the order of events.

This seems to imply that the player with initiative always has his effects resolve first if there's a timing issue for a trigger.

page 7 (on upkeep) wrote:
You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order.

This is compatible with what you propose, but talks about specificially the upkeep phase.

page 20 (on traps) wrote:
All of them might get triggered and revealed at the same time. When this happens, the controller of the traps determines the order of resolution.

This again seems to imply that when several effects go off simultaneously, their controller chooses their order.

Have you found anything more explicitly talking about simultaneously triggered effects in general?
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Doug Bey
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Both effects would be triggered, aka: must be revealed.

Long and short of it? Don't put both Nullify and Reverse Magic on the same creature at the same time.
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Guido Gloor
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Snotwalker wrote:
Long and short of it? Don't put both Nullify and Reverse Magic on the same creature at the same time.

True, the order thing only really comes into action after a silly play in the first place
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Gihan B
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Thanks for replies.

So there is no counter for Dissolve or Dispel (as Nullify can be easily bypassed) except to have more copies.

I guess the designers made a decision that denial-control was not fun so avoided it.

Back to the drawing board...
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Purple Paladin

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Nullify only works against Encht/Incant. It' won't do a thing vs an attack. Dissolve is and Incant, and so it can be nullified/reversed.

Dispel is an Icant, but it only works on a "revealed" enchantment, and so useless against anything face down. I can't say for sure, but Nullify says it undoes Incants, and Dispel is and Incant.

I could swear I read that the owner of the cards on the "target" gets to pick what is used in what order; still following the rules when it says "Must" on the description. For example, I had a friend use a seeking dispel on me when I had two facedown enchantments on the target, and I picked which one he "removed; if the owner of the cards on the target did not get to pick when/how those cards are used, I can't imagin the chaos it could insue rules-wise.

But that's the great thing about not being a rules lawyer, I can write what I think, and let the obsessive argue about it while I lay in my hammock with some lemonade. . .


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Guido Gloor
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Purple Paladin wrote:
For example, I had a friend use a seeking dispel on me when I had two facedown enchantments on the target, and I picked which one he "removed; if the owner of the cards on the target did not get to pick when/how those cards are used, I can't imagin the chaos it could insue rules-wise.

I think I'd play that differently, with the caster picking which facedown enchantment they want to target and remove. You're not allowed to mix them up, so the caster knows which one is the earlier of the two. I don't see much potential for chaos in this particular case, but again, I might be wrong. All of this is kind of hazy to me.
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Mr G
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haslo wrote:
Purple Paladin wrote:
For example, I had a friend use a seeking dispel on me when I had two facedown enchantments on the target, and I picked which one he "removed; if the owner of the cards on the target did not get to pick when/how those cards are used, I can't imagin the chaos it could insue rules-wise.

I think I'd play that differently, with the caster picking which facedown enchantment they want to target and remove. You're not allowed to mix them up, so the caster knows which one is the earlier of the two. I don't see much potential for chaos in this particular case, but again, I might be wrong. All of this is kind of hazy to me.


It is the CASTER of the Seeking Dispel who chooses which card is targetted. IIRC there is a side note mentioning the importance of keeping face down attachments in the correct order such that the opponent can follow which came out first, second, etc and choose appropriately.
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Purple Paladin

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Ok, I found it: "You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase."

But, the above refers to upkeep I'm guessing, thus my confusion. I'm not sure that it is referring to enchantments. I think G may be correct, in that you do it in the order the enchantments were cast.
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Guido Gloor
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Purple Paladin wrote:
Ok, I found it: "You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase."

But, the above refers to upkeep I'm guessing, thus my confusion.

I've quoted that in my first post, yeah, I think this mostly applies to upkeep indeed, but it sets a precedent.

Purple Paladin wrote:
I'm not sure that it is referring to enchantments. I think G may be correct, in that you do it in the order the enchantments were cast.

That's not what he said - he said that enchantments have to be kept in order so the caster can choose accordingly. It's what we do, too: The caster can choose, and he has full information which enchantment came before or after which other ones.
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