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Subject: Surprise ICE; rototurret, Ichi or neural katana? rss

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kakita
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I'm looking for mid cost surprise ice. Not Janus, archer and the like but something affordable and generally always threatening. I'm concentrating on rototurret, Ichi or neural katana. So two questions:

1) Generally what would you prefer to pack?

2) What would be a better add to my deck? It's a semi traditional NBN never advance with some tag options (closed accounts and psycho since tag me is quite prevalent in my meta right now)

Right now I'm going rototurret because of cheaper influence but I can see the case bein argued for NK or Ichi too.
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Steven Tu
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kakitaraisho wrote:
I'm looking for mid cost surprise ice. Not Janus, archer and the like but something affordable and generally always threatening. I'm concentrating on rototurret, Ichi or neural katana. So two questions:

1) Generally what would you prefer to pack?

2) What would be a better add to my deck? It's a semi traditional NBN never advance with some tag options (closed accounts and psycho since tag me is quite prevalent in my meta right now)

Right now I'm going rototurret because of cheaper influence but I can see the case bein argued for NK or Ichi too.


Depends on the meta (people playing around you), what your strategy is, and how much influence you have to spare.

Katana and Ichi are both 2 influence so choosing them over Roto is non trivial.

Ichi is good for general slowdown but terrible if people facecheck a lot on turn 1.

Katana is great if people facecheck without installing breakers.

Roto is great for exactly the opposite - people who install corroders and run.

Work out what suits your deck and the people around you
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Ony Moose
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Rototurret is quite effective as it also ends the run, meaning you can use it for defending an agenda, but its very cheap to break with a Sentry breaker. It doesn't do anything to a runner before they have some programs out though, which means its great against Shapers, but lackluster against Criminals.

Katana is amazing for slowing the runner down on turn 1, but is broken for 1C by mimic. Ninja is 4C to break, Pipeline 5C, Femme 3C, Creeper 3C. This means that while Katana is pretty cost effective against most breakers, it really really sucks against mimic (or dinoFemme).

Ichi is a good surprise for mid game, especially when its behind tagging ICE so the runner has already picked up a tag and won't have enough clicks to break all the subs AND clear their tag. The trace is pretty good in NBN as Trace3 for tag+brain damage is quite threatening. The downside is it only has the trace before they get programs installed, but that might be OK with NBN trace credits if you get a brain damage and tag in.
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Lysander
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NOT Rototurret. Its window of effectiveness is extremely limited. Before the runner gets out any programs it's simply an Ice Wall. After he gets his killer it's barely a speed bump, which means Rototurret is effective 1-2 turns out of the game, and that's provided you draw it.


I'd say Ichi or Archer, depending on how badly you need to sabotage the runner. Archer adds reliability at the tradeoff of losing an agenda. Katana is more effective versus face-checkers early, so it all depends on what stage of the game you want to knock the runner down a peg.
 
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Alan Reinholt
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I will say one thing in defense of NK: it does something none of the other ice listed here does, which is punish a runner who is facechecking before having programs out.

If the runner facechecks Ichi, you have to pay up and land the trace for it to do anything to a runner with no programs. If the runner facechecks rototurret, they don't even care and know to get a cheap sentry breaker out.

If a runner facechecks katana, they lose half their hand. The first time a runner goes face first into a neural katana, they will learn to think twice about naked running your deck.

This is non-trivial in terms of deterrent ice, but let me also suggest another approach from Jinteki in terms of early deterrent ice: chum. 1 cost to rez, put it in front of literally anything, and if the runner doesn't have the right breaker, it's suicidal to continue.
 
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Fredrik Zetterman
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Lysander1 wrote:
NOT Rototurret. Its window of effectiveness is extremely limited. Before the runner gets out any programs it's simply an Ice Wall. After he gets his killer it's barely a speed bump, which means Rototurret is effective 1-2 turns out of the game, and that's provided you draw it.


I'd give Rototurret a few more turns, because combined with a small barrier/code gate of some sort it provides a decent gearcheck of the runner since it's a sentry with end the run.

As for surprise ICE, it needs to be combined with Corporate Troubleshooter unless you face a really aggressive runner.
 
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kakita
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I have a pretty even mix between anarch shaper and criminal, but I tend to play against shaper and anarch more regularly.

Popular runners include whizzard (yeah amazing) and andromeda.
 
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kakita
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I also have chum in my deck. All my influence is currently spent on ice:

2x chum
3x ice wall
2x Eli
3x caduceus
2x rototurret

I'm tired of relying on NBN ice to tax my runners, lol.
 
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Lysander
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kakitaraisho wrote:

Popular runners include whizzard (yeah amazing) and andromeda.


As Jinteki players know, doing net damage against any runner with Wyldside is not even a speed bump, though hopefully a valuable card is lost. Trashing programs is typically better, as it takes longer to come back from. Of course, this also depends on your deck strategy as well.

If I didn't make my point before, I'd really advise against Roturret, especially if you don't have Corporate Troubleshooter. I'm not the first and I'm sure I won't be the last person to bash Rototurret's timing issues.
 
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kakita
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Just took out 2x rototurret and 1x caduceus for 2x NK. Just realised I had a lot of face checkers in my meta. I was wondering why Ichi seemed to be so tricky to rez.
 
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James Finkle
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Rototurret is my choice here.

Early game, it can be used as an ETR ice in a pinch. Protecting an agenda/asset is super vital here. They can tank a Katana to get through, and Ichi has no early game stopping power. Putting it behind or in front of a rezzed Barrier/Code Gate can be a great way to bait a program destruction.
Midgame, it always costs the most popular killers 2 credits to break. Katana only costs Mimic or Femmasaurus 1 cred to pass. Ichi is always more expensive, but can also be click-broken. Compare it to WoS and Enigma, both of which cost 2 credits to be broken by the most popular breakers of their type (Corroder and Gordian respectively), and it only costs 1 more to rez.
Lategame, they can't ignore it on a final run with extra cards in hand like they can Katana. Ichi is less ignorable depending on its positioning, but they can never ignore Roto.
Roto-Shooter is also the most reliable way to trash a program in the game.

Add in low influence and lower rez than Ichi and it's one of my top picks for Ice in the game.
 
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Atte Loikkanen
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It's great that people have different opinions on this.

I would go for Ichi simply because it has more subroutines on it. Clicking through is something you almost wish the runner would do. It is quite expensive though.
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Ryan Angell
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katana and wall of thorns splashed into other factions are the best imo.

on the other hand i think archer and tollbooth are pretty good in jinteki. in my last jinteki game i ended up winning because the runner thought the ice behind chum would be something like data mine or katana and broke himself on tollbooth and was unable to steal fetal.
 
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Sphynx Tan

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kakitaraisho wrote:
I'm looking for mid cost surprise ice. Not Janus, archer and the like but something affordable and generally always threatening. I'm concentrating on rototurret, Ichi or neural katana. So two questions:

1) Generally what would you prefer to pack?

2) What would be a better add to my deck? It's a semi traditional NBN never advance with some tag options (closed accounts and psycho since tag me is quite prevalent in my meta right now)

Right now I'm going rototurret because of cheaper influence but I can see the case bein argued for NK or Ichi too.


I Personally find the Ichi, though it allows a person to continue a run, to be very painful. 2 trashed programs and a trace 3 is painful for those prodders. If they get through, they either lose so much money and will take turns to recover or they lose key programs. It disrupts the opponent and lets you set-up your corp deck.
 
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