Christopher O
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I'm thinking of spending a few hours and making 1-1/4" x 5/8" (approximately - I'll experiment with sizes) counters for BP5; with enough tanks and Bren carriers for each of the scenarios included in Fall of the West and maybe a few additions.

Each tank would have an identifier (i.e. Pz.Kpfw.III "A", Pz.Kpfw.III "B", etc.) which could be referenced to an off map tracking sheet, which would have little spaces for the tank commander, main gun, heavy machine gun, etc.

I'd try to create them in the spirit and general graphic design "look" as the Combat Commander series.

Print off on a full-sheet adhesive label, stick onto cardboard, cut-out, and you have your tanks. Print the track sheets separately onto cardstock and you've got track sheets. No fussing about pushing around piles of weapons teams and leaders with weapons.

It'd be a bit of work, but it would be worth it if there were community interest. Would anyone want to see something like that done up?

Examples of previous custom fan-made work for other games:








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Christopher Dodge
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Interested!
 
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Calvin Baker
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Interested.
 
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Jason Albert
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Off *this* topic, but those Pax trackers are awesome! Nice.
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Chick Lewis
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I've already made my own off-map tracksheet, but I'll bet yours would be much more beautiful.

I used a sharpie to label my four French tankette counters "A through D", etc, so this is an excellent idea.

Bigger AFV custom counters than those from the magazine would have my printer running immediately.
 
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Interested. The art work you have up looks good.
 
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Perry Tatman
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Interested
 
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Christopher O
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Sounds like there's enough interest. To save me some footwork, in Canadian service, there was a tradition of naming vehicles for the letter of the company they belonged to - for example, in "C" Squadron, you might find tanks named "Caribou", "Conqueror" and "Crab", etc.

Do any similar naming conventions (official or otherwise) exist for German and French tanks? Instead of plain old "A", "B", etc., I thought I might add some colour with French and German names.

Also, I don't have the BP at hand and I might not have a chance to pick it up later this evening. Which model of the PzKpfw III is in BP5? The PzIIIE or F? I don't know if it matters for the top down view, but I like to try to be accurate.

AlbertaClipper wrote:
Off *this* topic, but those Pax trackers are awesome! Nice.


Thanks! In case you didn't find it, here's a link to the files section where you can download the PDF:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/90314/prestige-trackin...
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Mike Smith
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Sounds great. Yes please.
 
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Joe C Faust
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Interested. It will keep me from marking up my C3i counters with the cover, melee and VP values. And you look like a much better graphic designer than I am!
 
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Definitely interested!
 
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Sounds awesome to me. I made up the set of truck counters that were available for download from Vae Victis in support of one of their scenarios and it really added atmosphere to the game.
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Sounds great!
 
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Christopher O
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Here's my first stab at an AFV counter for the PzKpfw III:



This is preliminary; a draft. Changes are still quite possible. Feedback and comments welcome.
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Chick Lewis
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Truly GORGEOUS, Kozure !

A little more contrast between the background and tank color would make the gun barrel 'less invisible'.
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Richard Pardoe
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Kozure wrote:
Changes are still quite possible. Feedback and comments welcome.

If you look - you will notice the melee value of each AFV equals the cover value of the fortification.
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Christopher O
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RPardoe wrote:
Kozure wrote:
Changes are still quite possible. Feedback and comments welcome.

If you look - you will notice the melee value of each AFV equals the cover value of the fortification.


Interesting correlation; I had not noticed that. After I do up the FCM 36, the Char B1bis and the Universal Carrier, my intent was to propose some other AFVs as experimental counters (T-34, Sherman, PzIV, PzV), with fortifcation values equivalent to pillboxes and bunkers, and I think that may lead to the melee numbers being too high even in comparison.

With the forum's indulgence, I'll leave the melee value on the counter, but if people feel it's redundant, I will remove it.
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Christopher O
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chicklewis wrote:
Truly GORGEOUS, Kozure !

A little more contrast between the background and tank color would make the gun barrel 'less invisible'.


Heh, I had noticed that. The background colour I took directly from the CC-series German colour, so I won't be changing that. The colour of the tank is based on a colour photograph of a PzKpfw III I found which seemed to have a typical bluish grey used at the time. If anyone has a link to colour photograph(s) of the paint schemes used by armoured divisions during the invasion of France (I believe they used a darker pattern, almost a dark grey), I can change the colour of the tank on the counter to better match that scheme.

I've found quite a few colour images and photos on the web, but I'm not enough of a track-head to say which one is accurate for the Fall Gelb period.

[edit]

A little deeper digging seems to indicate that a colour called "Dunkelgrau RAL 7021" - a dark "Panzer" grey would have been the typical factory applied scheme in late 1940.

That should show up well against the standard CC:E background colour for Germans.

I will change the "sample" this evening and re-post for review.
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Christopher Dodge
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Looks great Kozure! Nice work!
 
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Bryan Collars
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Kozure wrote:
[
Interesting correlation; I had not noticed that. After I do up the FCM 36, the Char B1bis and the Universal Carrier, my intent was to propose some other AFVs as experimental counters (T-34, Sherman, PzIV, PzV), with fortifcation values equivalent to pillboxes and bunkers, and I think that may lead to the melee numbers being too high even in comparison..


Christopher,

Great looking counter. I look forward to seeing the others as well.

Just a word of caution regarding other AFV models, as you expand to larger and better armored AFVs you will quickly find that even minor changes to an AFVs configuration will result in those altered AFVs dominating a CC map. The AFVs selected for the 4 scenarios in BP #5 were choosen after much research and evaluation by myself and John. We did not start out with the idea to push the boundaries of the CC system but rather as we researched and delved deeper into the 1940 Campaign we encountered situations that demonstrated that in many instances AFVs were utilized in Infantry support roles. especially on the Allied side of the ledger. These situations we felt were worth exploring to see if the inclusion of a very limited set of AFVs could be incorporated into the CC system. After much trial and error and many, many playtest sessions the rules and configurations in the published BP were hammered out. This undertaking was so taxing that about 2/3 of the way through testing I very nearly scrapped the entire idea. Thankfully just at that point we turned a corner in playtesting and things just fell into place.

However, my goal is not to dissuade for without audacity and daring we wouldn't be having this discussion. I look forward to other efforts along these lines but will leave it up to new aspiring designers to work out the ineviatable issues that are sure to present themselves.
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Christopher O
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NinetySixer wrote:
Kozure wrote:
[
Interesting correlation; I had not noticed that. After I do up the FCM 36, the Char B1bis and the Universal Carrier, my intent was to propose some other AFVs as experimental counters (T-34, Sherman, PzIV, PzV), with fortifcation values equivalent to pillboxes and bunkers, and I think that may lead to the melee numbers being too high even in comparison..


Christopher,

Great looking counter. I look forward to seeing the others as well.

Just a word of caution regarding other AFV models, as you expand to larger and better armored AFVs you will quickly find that even minor changes to an AFVs configuration will result in those altered AFVs dominating a CC map. The AFVs selected for the 4 scenarios in BP #5 were choosen after much research and evaluation by myself and John. We did not start out with the idea to push the boundaries of the CC system but rather as we researched and delved deeper into the 1940 Campaign we encountered situations that demonstrated that in many instances AFVs were utilized in Infantry support roles. especially on the Allied side of the ledger. These situations we felt were worth exploring to see if the inclusion of a very limited set of AFVs could be incorporated into the CC system. After much trial and error and many, many playtest sessions the rules and configurations in the published BP were hammered out. This undertaking was so taxing that about 2/3 of the way through testing I very nearly scrapped the entire idea. Thankfully just at that point we turned a corner in playtesting and things just fell into place.


Thanks for the feedback, Bryan. I was just going to propose the other AFVs just as a fun exercise if people wanted to try playing around with them in the spirit of experimentation.

What I was going to propose is Pillbox equivalent cover (5) for the Sherman, T-34 and PzIV, and Bunker-equivalent cover (6) for the Panther, but keep all of their melee values down around 4.

The other previous AFV precedent (CC:E scenario 11) had the Sherman with Bunker fortification equivalent Cover 6. I don't think it's unreasonable to "roll it back" to 5 for the purposes of these new counters, in light of the PzIII's armour (4).

I don't have the CC:E scenario 11 at hand, but I believe a Pack Howitzer weapon was used for the main gun. Anyway, I'll check when I get back to my copy of CC:E, but all of these vehicles would more or less be the same as your other AFVs except with slightly higher fortification numbers and Pack Howitzers (or national equivalent) instead of mortars. I still have to look at the countermix to confirm.

Again, thanks for coming up with and playtesting the idea. I thought I'd give a little back by making up these counters.

Quote:
However, my goal is not to dissuade for without audacity and daring we wouldn't be having this discussion. I look forward to other efforts along these lines but will leave it up to new aspiring designers to work out the ineviatable issues that are sure to present themselves.


Audaces Fortuna iuvat!
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Kozure wrote:
I was just going to propose the other AFVs just as a fun exercise if people wanted to try playing around with them in the spirit of experimentation.


Chris, I love the look of your tank counters and look forward to using them.

If you are going to create some additional vehicles for folks to experiment with, you might want think about also creating counters for vehicles that were most often used in infantry support roles. Vehicles such as the StuG III, SU-76, SU-122, Churchill Mk I & IICS, Semovente 47/32, or even the Flamethrower equipped SPW 251/16. Vehicles like this would probably fit nicely within the scope & limitations of the BP-5 AFV rules.
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Robert Makowsky
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I have been using the fighting formations counters but the values don't track well.
 
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Clever Kozure wrote:
"The background colour I took directly from the CC-series German colour, so I won't be changing that."

Since these are vehicles, and usually operate in open or brush hexes, I think using the CC 'open ground yellow' for the background color of ALL the nationalities of tank counters might look very nice.

Then you could use the CC 'national color' for each AFV itself.
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gallid wrote:
Kozure wrote:
I was just going to propose the other AFVs just as a fun exercise if people wanted to try playing around with them in the spirit of experimentation.


Chris, I love the look of your tank counters and look forward to using them.

If you are going to create some additional vehicles for folks to experiment with, you might want think about also creating counters for vehicles that were most often used in infantry support roles. Vehicles such as the StuG III, SU-76, SU-122, Churchill Mk I & IICS, Semovente 47/32, or even the Flamethrower equipped SPW 251/16. Vehicles like this would probably fit nicely within the scope & limitations of the BP-5 AFV rules.


I was actually thinking about the various infantry support variants of the Sd.Kfw.251 - 251/1, 251/2, 251/9, and 251/16, as you mention.

You're probably right - it would be more "correct" to add AFVs which were in the direct infantry support role.

My list in terms of priority is currently Pz.Kpw.III, Char B1bis, FCM 36, Universal Carrier (I will list on the off-map tracking sheet the various variants - Vickers MMG, Bren LMG, 3" Mortar -, which would be easy to do) so we have the official AFVs covered. Then I'll do the Sd.Kfz.251 and variants, SU-76, Semovente 47/32, StuG III, Churchill, Sherman, Pz.Kpw.IV.

I'll leave the Tigers, Panthers, SU-122s, StuG IVs and T-34s for a future pass.

What I'd like to cover is the AFVs that infantry fighting at the scale that CC depicts would most often interact with. As Rick points out, it would likely be the infantry support vehicles - SPGs and "infantry tanks"

Second would be standard medium tanks who are acting in an infantry support role.

For time and countersheet space purposes, I'd like to limit this first run to the four official AFVs and eight "experimental" AFVs, with the intent to showcase the most common infantry support AFVs from the major nations (US, Germany, UK, USSR, Axis Minor, Allied Minor)

I think for the US the AFV you would see in the support role most often would be the Sherman, though I could be wrong.

For the Germans, besides the PzKfw.III, it would be the Sd.Kfz.251 and variants, the StuG III and the PzIV.

For the Soviets, the SU-76 and the SU-122

For the United Kingdom, we have the Universal Carrier and variants- should the other be the Churchill, the Valentine, or the Matilda? (The US M4A2 Sherman can do double-duty here as the Sherman III)

For Allied minors we already have been given the FCM 36 and Char B1bis

For Axis minors? Is the Semovente 47/32 the best choice? Carro Armato M15/42? Semovente 75/34? Something else?
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