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Subject: Countering big money in this set (includes expansions )... rss

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Shelters (DA): YES (I know, there aren't any DA cards in this set, but it's an option I elected)

Duchess (Hint)
Great Hall (Intr.)
Watch Tower (Pros.)
Wishing Well (Intr.)

Bureaucrat (base)
Thief (base)

Apprentice (Alch.)
Harvest (Corn.)
Minion (Intr.)

Forge (Pros.)


Big money player will go rush Minions and money. This approach seems to stand out more with this set b/c it seems to do better than other sets with Minion and big money. What would you guys do to counter it? IIRC, I manage to get half the Minions at times.


EDIT: ID-ed the sets each card is from
 
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Jack Rudd
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I suspect straight Minions will beat Minions + Money, though I could be wrong. Minions + Money is usually a sucky strategy.
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I don't see anything too exciting in this set. Big Minion is probably the best approach. I suspect adding an Apprentice in at some point might help.

I'm not sure how to play the early game. Most likely open double silver, and then buy Wishing Wells with 3/4, Minions with 5. Maybe a Great Hall to trash the Hovel. Not sure when you want to add the Apprentice, I suspect if your opponent is fighting for Minions the answer is once the pile is gone, otherwise, probably once you have about 2-3. Adding a single terminal is probably okay considering Necropolis makes it a lot more likely to be unproblematic, but I don't see a good one to add (Harvest, maybe).

If you don't want to play Minion, another plausible strategy might be BM+Watchtower. Watchtowers in hand let you draw 3 cards after being hit by Minions, or after trashing a copper with apprentice. But I think this would almost certainly lose to Big Minion.
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philosophyguy
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Minion + Apprentice for deck thinning and endgame acceleration. You don't want Silver in this deck—you'll probably open it but that's all.

Minion stacks are great at getting the first few Provinces but then stutter out. Apprentice provides much-needed deck thinning to help Minions collide and allows you to trash Provinces to restart your deck when things start stalling. Money is bad when it's stuck with 4-card hands.
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Matt E
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On this board, assuming my opponent was attempting a Minion strategy, I'd probably buy half the Minions but play a Treasure-centric strategy. If my opponent gets all 10 Minions, it's game over. But I don't think this board can support a true Minion deck with only 5 Minions. Maybe I'm wrong. (I'm probably wrong.)
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Matt N

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Is it an option to go for minions + forge, then focus on forging minion + silver + stray coppers into provinces? The minion would help you rummage through your deck for the forge, and the thinning would also help to keep the deck running. I have no experience with apprentice.
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philosophyguy
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Minion + Forge won't work, because in Minion games you'll be stuck with 4 card hands a lot. It's extremely unlikely you'll be able to match up the Forge with cards you want to forge together on a consistent basis.
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Bryan Doughty
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I'm thinking a pair of Bureaucrats in addition to the Minions. The Minons are good, but there isn't much you can do with them in this set, if you don't happen to draw multiples in a single hand. Haveing extra Silver flooding in will give you something to draw for when you only have a single Minion. And sometimes you will knock your opponent down to three cards.

Once the Minions are out pick up a couple of Apprentice. Trashing Estates, some of those extra Silver, and eventually the Bureaucrats could give you the extra cards needed to have enough coin for the Province later in the game.

Then after the half-way point on a "bad" hand buy Great Hall instead of yet another Silver.

I agree that Forge seems like a long-shot at best. Wishing Well is playable enough, but I think its usefullness will wear off fairly quick.
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bryanldoughty wrote:
I'm thinking a pair of Bureaucrats in addition to the Minions. The Minons are good, but there isn't much you can do with them in this set, if you don't happen to draw multiples in a single hand. Haveing extra Silver flooding in will give you something to draw for when you only have a single Minion. And sometimes you will knock your opponent down to three cards.

Once the Minions are out pick up a couple of Apprentice. Trashing Estates, some of those extra Silver, and eventually the Bureaucrats could give you the extra cards needed to have enough coin for the Province later in the game.

Then after the half-way point on a "bad" hand buy Great Hall instead of yet another Silver.

I agree that Forge seems like a long-shot at best. Wishing Well is playable enough, but I think its usefullness will wear off fairly quick.
That's one case that happened... Forged 2 Buro's into a Province, or a Minion + Silver. Otherwise, I just stripped away Copper and some other good card into just that card.

How likely is it to knock 'em down to 3 cards? You'd need to play Minion, do the discard option, then play Burocrat hoping to hit a Victory card.

I have bought Estates with the intention of being pts, but ended up feeding them to Apprentice since it was my best target given some hands. In some cases, I was able to "upgrade" the estate into Duchies or even a Province. I definitely trashed the Shelters whenever over Coppers if there was nothing else better.

BTW, that Big Money player will buy out all the Minions if possible, and it's not unusual for him to have 4 to 6 of them (since the 3rd player at best buys 1).
 
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Dave Green
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I'd go with the the Minion + Apprentice approach here. Minion doesn't play too well with Treasure, but on such a mediocre board it will be necessary to buy a few Silvers to have enough cash to make a dent in the Minions. That's where the Apprentice comes in: Trash out weaker Treasures later in the game for Card Draw.

The presence of Shelters means you can afford to buy Watchtower for the chance at a Necropolis + Watchtower hand. Play it when you have Necropolis already on the board, but otherwise save it for top-decking Buys and et cetera.

If you hit $5 and no one else has any Minions yet, consider getting an Apprentice to trash out chaff now and Silvers later. This is somewhat risky, as it puts you at a disadvantage on Minions and Apprentice'd Shelters and Coppers aren't worth much for card draw, but the extra-fast cycling may be the thing that puts you ahead of the other players. Alternatively you can buy Apprentice after Minions have already run out, but at that point you won't get as much deck-cycling benefit.

If you hit $3-$4 with no Minions yet and someone else already has a Minion, consider buying a Watchtower for a slight defensive boost and the ability to top-deck fresh Buys.

TL;DR - Buy more Minions than anyone else. If you're behind on Minions, consider Watchtower and/or Apprentice. This game looks to be a Minion Mirror Match, and the guy with the most Minions will probably win, unless someone else who gambled on Apprentice and/or Watchtower gets lucky.
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Bryan Doughty
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ackmondual wrote:
...How likely is it to knock 'em down to 3 cards? You'd need to play Minion, do the discard option, then play Burocrat hoping to hit a Victory card...


Not very likely. But if it happens once or twice it could be the edge needed to eke out a narrow victory in a game where everyone is doing pretty much the same thing; i.e., buying/useing Minion until they are gone, then getting as many VP as one can 'till the game is over.
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Pap Qaq
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This is a boring set. Minion rush and then maybe one apprentice. You are opening silver silver and then all minions.
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Matt E
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p1q0 wrote:
This is a boring set. Minion rush and then maybe one apprentice. You are opening silver silver and then all minions.

I think Bureaucrats are going to slow down a Minion strategy quite a lot. Whether they can then contest Provinces is another matter, but Wishing Wells and Apprentices probably allow them to make a go of it.
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Pap Qaq
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LastFootnote wrote:
p1q0 wrote:
This is a boring set. Minion rush and then maybe one apprentice. You are opening silver silver and then all minions.

I think Bureaucrats are going to slow down a Minion strategy quite a lot. Whether they can then contest Provinces is another matter, but Wishing Wells and Apprentices probably allow them to make a go of it.


Bearacrat doesn't do that much to minion. Sometimes you will draw one less card. Admittedly it would be better if there was some kind of trasher, say upgrade.
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martin dambachmair
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I strongly disagree with buying apprentice before or after you get the minions!

First you want minions! After 2-3 minions you really want the apprentice! It doesnt matter if you get behind in the minion race if you can trash cards! The synergy is just to strong. While windmilling through your deck with minion you will see the apprentice a lot of time thining even more...
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