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Subject: Incentive To "Install" rss

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Mike Allen
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We played our first full game of CO2 last night (4 Players) and found that everyone had a severe reluctance to perform the Install action. We felt that there just wasn't enough personal incentive to "Install", because you're just setting up one of the other players to follow up with a "Construct" action on the plant we just "Installed".

Are we missing something? Is "Install" maybe too weak, or is "Construct" maybe too strong?


............ Mike


 
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Andi Hub
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Look in this thread: Stalemate on Installing?
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Vital Lacerda
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or this: is-the-techincome-track-too-powerful;
or maybe this: one-sentence-random-tips-to-get-advantages-in-co2
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Ben
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The short version is that installing a plant is better than you think and constructing a plant is worse than you think.

To use a simple example, installing a recycling plant gives you 2.5 VP ($5) plus other benefits that are hard to monetize (e.g., CEP in hand vs. CEP in region). Constructing the same plant give you 1.5 VP (5 VP - $7) and costs you a cube (though it benefits you in the race for region control, expertise, and UN Goals).

One other thing that new players overlook far too frequently is that earning money from actions is worth VPs. And not just the $2:1VP at the end of the game. If you earn money from actions, you can take your income as VPs. If you spend money on your actions to earn VPs, you have to take income as money (to keep spending to get VPs). So in the recycling plant example above, the guy who gains $5 can take more VPs during income and the guy who spent $7 will be more likely to have to take money.
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Evan Dunn
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"...to excel above the common rate, in frivolous things, is nothing graceful in a man of quality and honor." - Michel de Montaigne
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chally wrote:
If you earn money from actions, you can take your income as VPs. If you spend money on your actions to earn VPs, you have to take income as money (to keep spending to get VPs). So in the recycling plant example above, the guy who gains $5 can take more VPs during income and the guy who spent $7 will be more likely to have to take money.


I'm confused. I've read through the rule book a few times, and I haven't seen this listed. Could you site where you see this?
 
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Steve Duff
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quietcorn wrote:
I'm confused. I've read through the rule book a few times, and I haven't seen this listed. Could you site where you see this?


"1.1 Distribute income
...
Players may choose to receive their Income as money and/or victory points."

And/or, so you can take any combination you wish.
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Evan Dunn
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Right, but that's income. Player's actions that produce money don't seem to use the word income.
 
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Ben
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quietcorn wrote:
Right, but that's income. Player's actions that produce money don't seem to use the word income.


I think you're misunderstanding my post.

If you spend your actions earning money, you have the flexibility take your income as VPs because you don't need money (you earned it during your actions).

If you primarily spend your actions earning VPs (spending money), you lose that flexibility. You are much more likely to take your income as money in that case (which costs you VPs overall).
 
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You can't handle the truth?
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quietcorn wrote:
Right, but that's income. Player's actions that produce money don't seem to use the word income.


He is saying the following, you have 2 players, and let's say they each have $7 and an income level that will be 7 in the upcoming income round.

A: $7
B: $7

A: Installs Recycling plant: $7 + $5 = $12
B: Constructs Recycling plant: $7 - $7 = $0, +5 VP

Income Round:
A: (takes all points) $12, +7 VP
B: (takes all money) +$7, 5 VP

So now player A is 2 VP ahead in VP, and $5 ahead in money which is 2.5 more VP. Now of course, this example is super simplified, but this is what we are getting at, using your money, means you need to take money, while having money means you can take VP during the income round, and that is the most efficient way to get VP.

Edits: I forgot my money! Thanks Ben.
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Steve Duff
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quietcorn wrote:
Right, but that's income. Player's actions that produce money don't seem to use the word income.


I guess I'm confused about where you're confused, because Ben didn't use the word income for player actions, he specifically said actions can earn money. He's not saying anything other than the rule you know.

All Ben said was that if you earn money with actions, then when income time rolls around, it's much easier to take income as vps, because you already have money. When you're broke and income time rolls around, you're taking a good chunk of income as money, not points.
 
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Ben
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crambaza wrote:
So now, they still have the same money, but player A is 2 VP ahead.

Excellent example, but player A should have more money ($12 to B's $7), so he's 4.5 VPs ahead after the round.
 
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Vital Lacerda
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Thank you guys for reading the game so well. I understand that is something that not every people can see in his first play.

Kudos to you.
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Jack Francisco
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newrev wrote:
Thank you guys for reading the game so well. I understand that is something that not every people can see in his first play.

Kudos to you.


I have experience playing Age of Industry, which has this type of cooperative/competition. In that game you sometimes have to ship your goods to someone else's port to make money for yourself. You are helping them as well, but as long as you help yourself MORE, it's worth it.
 
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Evan Dunn
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ah, i see. I read that wrongly. Thanks.
 
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Paul Cockburn
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Some good points about the advantages of installing as opposed to constructing (and having only played solo so far I hadn't appreciated these subtleties), but presumably you also have to take into account the fact that the player who constructs gets the major benefit of (potentially) controlling of a region worth extra VPs at the game end.
 
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Gorwen Finarfin
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And controlling let's you spend cep from the region. Separately then comes the company goal cards and U.N. Goals, and their V.P.s.
 
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Ben
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etighe wrote:
And controlling let's you spend cep from the region. Separately then comes the company goal cards and U.N. Goals, and their V.P.s.


Absolutely, which is the source of nuance in the game:

In brute terms, installing is as good as (and is often better than) constructing. But constructing has collateral benefits that are very important. Selecting which plants to construct, and where, is the key to maximizing these collateral benefits.

Most of the people who talk about a stalemate in installation make it sound like every install action is immediately followed by construction. If that's the case, either people are choosing installations poorly or people are constructing indiscriminately. Neither reflects skilled play. I want to focus on specifically installing the plants whose construction does not substantially benefit subsequent players.

I primarily play 2- or 3-player, so the implications and dynamics could end up feeling very different in a 4-5 player game.
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Kyle Meighan
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I have just got the game, and have not played other than one time solo, but have read just about all these threads, and frankly from this limited experience I think this game is great so far.

I do have a related question. The examples I keep seeing are for recycling. (And occasionally for the Forestation)

My question is, is there ever incentive to install a solar plant?

It seems through my inexperienced eyes that the benefit of 3 cubes is not outweighed by the point gain of construction, like the other example. Yes, if you put your scientist on there you can get some more benefit, but that is true of all the energy sources. Indeed you can get two cubes just by proposing any plant.

What am I missing?

-One Wolf
 
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Chris Berger
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One_Wolf wrote:
My question is, is there ever incentive to install a solar plant?

It seems through my inexperienced eyes that the benefit of 3 cubes is not outweighed by the point gain of construction, like the other example. Yes, if you put your scientist on there you can get some more benefit, but that is true of all the energy sources. Indeed you can get two cubes just by proposing any plant.


Cubes are hard to come by. Yes, you can get 2 by proposing a plant, but that's not enough to build most plants by itself, and you also need a cube to claim a UN goal. And the other proposal spots are also very useful, so you won't just always go for the cubes when proposing.

The other reason to install a solar plant is if you want to build a solar plant. Contrary to these threads, people don't always build "your" projects, because they don't always want to give you free knowledge.
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